Are British fighters Technically Inferior?

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 17 Apr 2008, 14:27

Are British fighters Technically Inferior to our American/Mexican counterparts? All fighters have faults but British fighters who are as athletically able seem to lack the defensive and technical ability their American counterparts. I think this could be due to America being a boxing mecca and great fighters training/sparring together breads greatfighters. Here are a few examples:

1. Hatton coming in against Mayweather and Collazo with his hands down and being caught with massive counters leading him to being ko'd.

2. Clinton Woods not having the basic head movement or jab to close the gap against Tarver

3. Hamed being taken to school by Barrera (Hamed is probably a bad example being such an unorthodox fighter)

4. Khan/Calazage being easily open to right hands, and many expect Khan's defense to be his downfall

5. Nigel Benn for all his abilty had massive problems with movers as we could see with his 2 fights against Malinger

6. Eubank made technical faults such as being off balance after throwing a punch

Thoughts?? Am I too critical as most fighters make technical errors?

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 17 Apr 2008, 14:31

You raise some good points. I think Dean Francis and David Haye were/are sound technical fighters when in their primes, with styles that would/have done work at a higher level.

Good young fighters on the way up like John Murray and Darren Barker who are technically sound. Lee Purdy looks nice and compact as well, and Paul Truscott has some excellent moves. Matthew Macklin has a tidy style and brilliant balance. Jamie Moore does some fine moves from the southpaw stance with that clean, head/body rhythm (when he fights in controlled fury fashion).

I agree though, out best fighters tend to be unorthodox and open to rights at times.

Ot that, if you look at the recent world title losses of Woods and Cookie, you see guys that just don't know how to go about beating a southpaw.

If these fighters are lacking something - like Khan - then it's up to the promoter to protect his investment for as long as he can. I suppose.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 17 Apr 2008, 14:33

I think its a case of we seem to protect our best fighters more compared to poorer countries or places where there is a deeper talent pool.

mrkh · Post by **mrkh** » 17 Apr 2008, 14:42

calzaghe hasn't been trained by a proper boxing trainer, and eubank wasn't british-schooled-he was actually american-schooled and claims he would never of got anywhere if he started boxing in britain!

there's a quote in an old boxing monthly from 1991 where eubank says 'from what i've seen in england - don't train me! please don't train me! you let me train you!' alot of british trainers hated his guts after readining that.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 17 Apr 2008, 14:46

MatthewS wrote:I think its a case of we seem to protect our best fighters more compared to poorer countries or places where there is a deeper talent pool.

I agree with this. Audley Harrison is a prime example. A millionaire before his 1st pro fight then fed a string of nobodies while all the time being told how great his is and a champ in the making. As soon as he fought anyone half decent he was exposed. If he was american I reckon he wouldn't have got anywhere near as much exposure and would have had time to learn his craft away from the limelight and possible could have made more of an impact than he has.

Theres no doubtin my mind that fighters from the states and south america have much better sparring and tougher fighters compared to us.

The British press have this awful habit of over-hyping every British sportsman/team etc... Then when they lose they slate them !!

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 17 Apr 2008, 14:49

Controversial wrote:
MatthewS wrote:I think its a case of we seem to protect our best fighters more compared to poorer countries or places where there is a deeper talent pool.
I agree with this. Audley Harrison is a prime example. A millionaire before his 1st pro fight then fed a string of nobodies while all the time being told how great his is and a champ in the making. As soon as he fought anyone half decent he was exposed. If he was american I reckon he wouldn't have got anywhere near as much exposure and would have had time to learn his craft away from the limelight and possible could have made more of an impact than he has.

Theres no doubtin my mind that fighters from the states and south america have much better sparring and tougher fighters compared to us.

The British press have this awful habit of over-hyping every British sportsman/team etc... Then when they lose they slate them !!

we need to hire Sakio Bika and Ayittey Powers to fight every 10-0 fighter between 160 and 175. Problem fcuking solved. same for the lower weights, get some granite geezers who love to get rough, and fling the boys in with them when they get to 10-0

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 17 Apr 2008, 14:52

It might be agood idea to go to US gyms. Sample the different styles. Take fights away from home. I think John Murray sparred at the DLH gym with Shane Mosley.

Yanks have an advantage because they face so many different styles, nationalities (Mexicans, Russians, etc) and so on.

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:02

In a word, yes.

In addition, British fighters can only fight one way. Similar to Mexicans (who are technically brilliant), except they train a lot harder and fight good opponents on their way up, so they can handle the top level.

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:04

Autobarn wrote: I think John Murray sparred at the DLH gym with Shane Mosley.

He sure did

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:14

Aren't Mexicans known for their brawling and heart more than technical ability?

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:25

Autobarn wrote:It might be agood idea to go to US gyms. Sample the different styles. Take fights away from home. I think John Murray sparred at the DLH gym with Shane Mosley.

Yanks have an advantage because they face so many different styles, nationalities (Mexicans, Russians, etc) and so on.

Go train and fight in the US is a great idea.

I have always said the likes of Khan and even old Audley should have done this right from the start.
Train in rough house gyms with hungry fighters and fight on undercards against tough, seasoned pro's.

Asterix · Post by **Asterix** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:26

David Haye does all his sparring in America (Florida?), doesn't he?

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:32

Asterix wrote:David Haye does all his sparring in America (Florida?), doesn't he?

I thought it was Northern Cyprus?

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:34

Haye does his conditioning in Cyprus I think, and moves to the States in the build up to fight time to(presumably)up the competition.

Apparently, he offers fighters a thousand dollars to knock him out in sparring!

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:37

yiddo14 wrote:
Autobarn wrote:It might be agood idea to go to US gyms. Sample the different styles. Take fights away from home. I think John Murray sparred at the DLH gym with Shane Mosley.

Yanks have an advantage because they face so many different styles, nationalities (Mexicans, Russians, etc) and so on.
Go train and fight in the US is a great idea.

I have always said the likes of Khan and even old Audley should have done this right from the start.
Train in rough house gyms with hungry fighters and fight on undercards against tough, seasoned pro's.

Audley did go to America though and still Is afraid to fight.

STP · Post by **STP** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:42

yiddo14 wrote:
Autobarn wrote:It might be agood idea to go to US gyms. Sample the different styles. Take fights away from home. I think John Murray sparred at the DLH gym with Shane Mosley.

Yanks have an advantage because they face so many different styles, nationalities (Mexicans, Russians, etc) and so on.
Train in rough house gyms with hungry fighters

But there aren't rough house gyms with hungry fighters in America anymore.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:47

Max Molyneux wrote:Aren't Mexicans known for their brawling and heart more than technical ability?

Only if you don't understand boxing. Mexicans have wonderful technical skill. Look at Barrera, Marquez, Morales to name 3. Even the Mexican American journeyman that fought Lynes showed him a bag of tricks and got jobbed

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:47

Max Molyneux wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:
Autobarn wrote:It might be agood idea to go to US gyms. Sample the different styles. Take fights away from home. I think John Murray sparred at the DLH gym with Shane Mosley.

Yanks have an advantage because they face so many different styles, nationalities (Mexicans, Russians, etc) and so on.
Go train and fight in the US is a great idea.

I have always said the likes of Khan and even old Audley should have done this right from the start.
Train in rough house gyms with hungry fighters and fight on undercards against tough, seasoned pro's.
Audley did go to America though and still Is afraid to fight.

He went too late(he did EVERYTHING too late in terms of his pro career though! Mind you, he had to wait in the Am's for the Super Heavies to be at an all time low to bag the Olympic Gold

so can't have it both ways I guess!)

As mentioned above he was a millionaire before he threw his first punch as a pro.

Someone like Audley should have gone straight out to the States after the Olympics and sparred and trained alongside the top heavyweights at the time.
Before he even had his first pro bout he should have been a regular sparring partner to the Klitschko brothers and the like.

Certainly a lot tougher than hugging "Mighty" Joe Young for 4 rounds at a time at Repton

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:49

STP wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:
Autobarn wrote:It might be agood idea to go to US gyms. Sample the different styles. Take fights away from home. I think John Murray sparred at the DLH gym with Shane Mosley.

Yanks have an advantage because they face so many different styles, nationalities (Mexicans, Russians, etc) and so on.
Train in rough house gyms with hungry fighters
But there aren't rough house gyms with hungry fighters in America anymore.

There are, it's just the hungry fighters are NOT American

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:50

what is the max age for an Olypic Amatuer fighter? is it a worldwide limit or do different countries do it at different ages?

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:52

mrkh wrote:calzaghe hasn't been trained by a proper boxing trainer, and eubank wasn't british-schooled-he was actually american-schooled and claims he would never of got anywhere if he started boxing in britain!

there's a quote in an old boxing monthly from 1991 where eubank says 'from what i've seen in england - don't train me! please don't train me! you let me train you!' alot of british trainers hated his guts after readining that.

These are good points, Eubanks footwork was a league above the domestic comp.

Eubanks technical ability is better but he made some mistakes, ie throwing a telegraphed right, missing and being cmpletely off balance, if he threw the left hook after the missed right it would correct the weakness somewhat

mrkh · Post by **mrkh** » 17 Apr 2008, 15:56

eubanks footwork sucked going forward, but looked pretty going back and around. he had the reflexes to get away with throwing rights from out of range (usually to the body) most often, can't say it wasn't effective but certainly not textbook skill and i doubt he learned that from any trainer, just came up with it himself.

fist · Post by **fist** » 17 Apr 2008, 16:14

No I dont think there is any inferiority in terms of technical skill assocatied with this country. Every fighter is different and we could easily pull apart thousands of US fighters. You cant generalise like that in my opinion. Name some current live US legends and we can easily discuss their techincal flaws. Overall, when it comes down to success, obviously the US have a much bigger pool to draw from than other countries, so your bound to get higher volumes of expertise now again, however, Id say currently in relative terms, Britain beats the US hands down in technical ability.

Anyway, no one fighter is the same. All have flaws, all have their strengths. On Saturday we have a massive fight between the best current British fighter and someone who calls himself a legend. The former, may have had times when he was open to the right, but overall he's a hugely skilled and versatile boxer, who can scrap as well. As for Hopkins, he's limited and one dimensional, a fighter who's main strength is the propesnity to clinch, headbutt and elbow could never be considered an all rounded highly technical and effective boxer.

You also mention, Benn, well he had plenty of skill, its just his main strategy was pure aggression and brawling. It worked for him and if he would have toned it down too much (arguablu what he did towards the end of his career due to the G Man tradgedy) then he would not have been as successful. Eubank I think was hugely technical, he is obsessive when it comes to the complex skills, movements and strategies employed in boxing. He was obsessed with practising over and over again. As someone one a thread said the other day, when he sparred, he didnt like to go at it, but preferred to use the experience to refine his technique.

Arbachakov · Post by **Arbachakov** » 17 Apr 2008, 18:06

Eubank was a good technician for the most part, just with some big flaws like footwork while pressing and left-hook.His balance and footwork issues were very odd considering how competent he was in other areas.

The poor technique in British fighters is a fairly recent development.

Look at the best British fighters from the sixties and seventies.They were mostly all very well-schooled with a tradition in their styles that showed a full knowledge of the past technical greats like Louis and so on.

Howard Winstone, John Conteh and Ken Buchanan are all among the best pure-boxers in their divisions history and that is talking about original weight-classes, not the newer junior classes with less history attached.

We haven't produced any stylists like that for a long while.Calzaghe is a lot more savvy than our other fighters, but his style is very modern amatuer derived.He's not really a "classic" technical fighter.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 17 Apr 2008, 18:33

Short answer is yes,

John Murray takes to many shots for my liking also.

Look what happend when one of our supposed better technitions... Richard Williams.... stepped up to fight Martinez, looked so outclassed that Adam Smith started mentioning a re-occurance of a mystery illness.

Look at how America developed Adrian Stone.

I still believe that fighters like Joe Calzaghe and Steve Robinson would have benefited further when training in the states.

For me alot of the problem is, although I don't know what it is like other countries, but we rush our very young school boy Am's into actual fights... and coaches like to take their time over those that have turned up to the gym for the first time at say 15.

Develops that "be first" mentality, and its just the physically strong ones will come through. The later bloomer 12 year old will quit.

Seeing clips of Hatton and Calzaghe as very young fighters - they just look like more refined versions of themselves now. All about throwing as many punches as possible and physical strength.