Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

[dempseyfire]

These what if matches a mouth watering its unfortunate that we have not seen two greats while in thier primes for ten years.

Are you thinking about Ibeabuchi and Tua? I think their 97' versions would have been beaten Ali and Frazier respectively, but given the short duration of their reigns, I wouldn't call either a 'Great'.

Huh????

David Tua in any incarnation gets shut out by Ali, literally . . .shut out. Doesn't win a round. Tua could hardly win rounds vs a C level stick and move plan by the slow as molasses Hasim Rahman for crying out loud.

Ibeabuchi along with Bowe is a great big woulda coulda shoulda story. Barely beating Tua and knocking out a light HW doesn't equate to me having near the ability to beat Ali. Ike was not fast enough and didn't have a top-flight jab, he would've been soundly outpointed. Maybe if he'd shown a way to beat Lewis, the Klit brothers, and others you'd have an argument, but as to what actually happened no way jose.

As to Frazier, if Ike could almsot lose to Tua, he's losing handidly to the much superior Frazier. And Ibeabuchi was a decent puncher but not in the league of a Foreman/Tyson who could take out Frazier before he got set. I'd actually give Tua a better chance at pulling the upset b/c he had the type of power to shock Joe early. But don't see the Tuaman finishing him off.

[Elton John]

The argument that Bowe shoulda/woulda/coulda become great is irrelevant. You could say make the same theoretical argument about any other fighter in history.

How true. I give Bowe the best chance to upset the great Ali.

[BoxBuzz]

Part of the Ali mystique is that he was not made of JUST potential....he also mined the gold that he was made of. He was literally potential REALIZED. A very big step that so many fail to take.

He didn't blow his chances with bad choices and had a bit of the winds of luck at his back.

The history books are filled with the Bowe's of this world who you can argue HAD the potential. But that's not good enough....you have to make manifest the stuff your made of.

[Ambling Alp]

The only question is if the fights go the distance or not. They would all get hit a lot more they would land.
Frazier had enough trouble against the rusty version in 1971. He isn't going to going to beat the 1964-1967 version.

Norton would have much more trouble as well. He had enough trouble when the older 1970's version was on his feet in spurts.

Holmes would give the early 1970's version trouble, but the prime version is simply too fast. Holmes isn't going to land his jab nearly as often as he usually did.

Bowe and Holyfield would get hit almost at will. His handspeed, combinations and punching accurracy would make them sitting ducks.

During this period, he fought fighters that had a big punch, applied great pressure, had great handspeed, had a great lefthook, had a great jab, were tall.

During this period he was 10-0 with 8 knockouts. The two fights that went the distance were very lopsided.

What style or strategy worked at all against him in any fight from 1964-1967?

[raylawpc]

Who is in their corners in this hypothetical match-up? If you have Eddie Futch in there, I'd give prime Norton and prime Holmes a real good chance against Ali on the best night of Ali's life. Maybe Frazier too.

[The Great John L]

The only question is if the fights go the distance or not. They would all get hit a lot more they would land.
Frazier had enough trouble against the rusty version in 1971. He isn't going to going to beat the 1964-1967 version.

Norton would have much more trouble as well. He had enough trouble when the older 1970's version was on his feet in spurts.

Holmes would give the early 1970's version trouble, but the prime version is simply too fast. Holmes isn't going to land his jab nearly as often as he usually did.

Bowe and Holyfield would get hit almost at will. His handspeed, combinations and punching accurracy would make them sitting ducks.

During this period, he fought fighters that had a big punch, applied great pressure, had great handspeed, had a great lefthook, had a great jab, were tall.

During this period he was 10-0 with 8 knockouts. The two fights that went the distance were very lopsided.

What style or strategy worked at all against him in any fight from 1964-1967?

With all due respects Alp, don't you think you might be a little bit over the top with your assessments? Other than Liston and Patterson, his opposition during that period wasn't notable, and Patterson was far from his best the night they fought.

I think a peak Frazier is a major problem for a young Ali, who hadn't yet developed the iron constitution, much of which came from the personal and professional hardships following his refusal of induction.

To say he would beat them all seems reasonable, but to imply that he would have few problems seems a pretty difficult opinion to defend.

[BashOfHartlepool]

i think mike tyson in his prime would of beat ali in his time but thats just my opinion

[Ambling Alp]

The only question is if the fights go the distance or not. They would all get hit a lot more they would land.
Frazier had enough trouble against the rusty version in 1971. He isn't going to going to beat the 1964-1967 version.

Norton would have much more trouble as well. He had enough trouble when the older 1970's version was on his feet in spurts.

Holmes would give the early 1970's version trouble, but the prime version is simply too fast. Holmes isn't going to land his jab nearly as often as he usually did.

Bowe and Holyfield would get hit almost at will. His handspeed, combinations and punching accurracy would make them sitting ducks.

During this period, he fought fighters that had a big punch, applied great pressure, had great handspeed, had a great lefthook, had a great jab, were tall.

During this period he was 10-0 with 8 knockouts. The two fights that went the distance were very lopsided.

What style or strategy worked at all against him in any fight from 1964-1967?

With all due respects Alp, don't you think you might be a little bit over the top with your assessments? Other than Liston and Patterson, his opposition during that period wasn't notable, and Patterson was far from his best the night they fought.

I think a peak Frazier is a major problem for a young Ali, who hadn't yet developed the iron constitution, much of which came from the personal and professional hardships following his refusal of induction.

To say he would beat them all seems reasonable, but to imply that he would have few problems seems a pretty difficult opinion to defend.

His opposition over that period was better than Bowe, Holyfield's, Holmes, Norton's and Frazier's were.
Take out their best two opponents that they beat and it's nothing special.

They all had trouble in some of their fights, Ali never did.
I think he had the "Iron Constitution" then, he just didn't have to use it. I don't see the induction as having anything to do with making him tougher or have more heart or anything like that.

[dempseyfire]

The only question is if the fights go the distance or not. They would all get hit a lot more they would land.
Frazier had enough trouble against the rusty version in 1971. He isn't going to going to beat the 1964-1967 version.

Norton would have much more trouble as well. He had enough trouble when the older 1970's version was on his feet in spurts.

Holmes would give the early 1970's version trouble, but the prime version is simply too fast. Holmes isn't going to land his jab nearly as often as he usually did.

Bowe and Holyfield would get hit almost at will. His handspeed, combinations and punching accurracy would make them sitting ducks.

During this period, he fought fighters that had a big punch, applied great pressure, had great handspeed, had a great lefthook, had a great jab, were tall.

During this period he was 10-0 with 8 knockouts. The two fights that went the distance were very lopsided.

What style or strategy worked at all against him in any fight from 1964-1967?

With all due respects Alp, don't you think you might be a little bit over the top with your assessments? Other than Liston and Patterson, his opposition during that period wasn't notable, and Patterson was far from his best the night they fought.

I think a peak Frazier is a major problem for a young Ali, who hadn't yet developed the iron constitution, much of which came from the personal and professional hardships following his refusal of induction.

To say he would beat them all seems reasonable, but to imply that he would have few problems seems a pretty difficult opinion to defend.

His opposition over that period was better than Bowe, Holyfield's, Holmes, Norton's and Frazier's were.
Take out their best two opponents that they beat and it's nothing special.

They all had trouble in some of their fights, Ali never did.
I think he had the "Iron Constitution" then, he just didn't have to use it. I don't see the induction as having anything to do with making him tougher or have more heart or anything like that.

I completly disagree Ali had better opposition in the 60s compared with Frazier at his best.

Frazier: Bonavena, Machen, Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, Chuvalo and Ali himself.

That's better than Folley, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, and Terrell.

And Ali had competetive fights with Jones and Liston I (before Liston quit), and his fights with Mildenberger and Chuvalo were not exactly walks in the park. To say Ali "never" had trouble in his fights in the 60s is as ridiculous as Elmer saying Bowe surely beats Ali.

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

The first fight between Ali and Henry Cooper wasn't easy for the winner

[HomicideHenry]

i think mike tyson in his prime would of beat ali in his time but thats just my opinion

I disagree, as much as I like Mike Tyson, he failed to impress against James Tillis and Jesse Ferguson, both guys who had a decent jab and had good ring generalship; you can argue that Tyson was still green and had yet to hit his peak, but for me Tyson at his best was no more than a year later when he fought Trevor Berbick for the WBC title, so he was near his physical best.

I think the question that should be put up more is, "Who could have beaten Ali the most times in a series of fights?," rather than to say who could have beaten whom. Same with Joe Louis, it always seemed Ali was better in return matches than he was in the first ones; Marciano was also the same way.

Personally, to me, there's fewer stylists who could have beaten Ali, than there is swarmers, considering most of Ali's flaws were brought out from such men as Joe Frazier, who gave Ali no other choice but to throw uppercuts which left him open for counter left hooks, and other little things that put him in bad situations [Ali wasn't a bad defensive fighter, blocking wise, but by and large he could be cornered and be hit to the body plenty of times].

Out of the swarmers, I'd say Frazier is the favorite, but I wouldn't count out Marciano considering his work rate, though Dempsey just might be a better horse to bet on, considering he never quite had the problematic issue of getting bad cuts in fights like The Rock did.

Had Ali and Frazier fought 100 times, I'd say it be split 60/40, Dempsey would probably get somewhere around 50/50 and Marciano would get somewhere in the vicinity of 75/25 [mind you, though, the higher numbers in those figures are for Ali, not the others in question].

No matter how you would really look at it, Ali would be favorited over any of them, and more than likely would win via decision or by a late TKO. Not to say it would be easy, because fighting Frazier, Dempsey or Marciano was never easy, no matter how skilled or fast the opponent was.

[elmersalsa]

The only question is if the fights go the distance or not. They would all get hit a lot more they would land.
Frazier had enough trouble against the rusty version in 1971. He isn't going to going to beat the 1964-1967 version.

Norton would have much more trouble as well. He had enough trouble when the older 1970's version was on his feet in spurts.

Holmes would give the early 1970's version trouble, but the prime version is simply too fast. Holmes isn't going to land his jab nearly as often as he usually did.

Bowe and Holyfield would get hit almost at will. His handspeed, combinations and punching accurracy would make them sitting ducks.

During this period, he fought fighters that had a big punch, applied great pressure, had great handspeed, had a great lefthook, had a great jab, were tall.

During this period he was 10-0 with 8 knockouts. The two fights that went the distance were very lopsided.

What style or strategy worked at all against him in any fight from 1964-1967?

bullshit...All of them had the capabilities and the abilities to beat him. I would not be surprised if Ali lose the series.

[elmersalsa]

Who is in their corners in this hypothetical match-up? If you have Eddie Futch in there, I'd give prime Norton and prime Holmes a real good chance against Ali on the best night of Ali's life. Maybe Frazier too.

I agree with you 100%...See, these Ali lallygaggers think that he was all INVENCIBLE IN HIS PRIME and all that shit. When you look at his tapes in his prime, Ali had lots of shortcomings TECHNICALLY. For example, he was suceptible to left hooks. Well, Norton and Frazier had the best left hooks in the business as well as great suffocating pressure. I think that Ken Norton is being too downplayed when TECHNICALLY, the guy could really fight and beat any heavyweight in history in his prime.

[Robinson]

Going by the Middelburger fight I am inclined to think that Moorer would have given Ali a hard fight. Both at there bests. Moorer may not win, but he would make it hard for the Greatest.

[Ambling Alp]

Based on what? Moorer's close win over Axel Schulz, getting knocked out by an ancient George Foreman? Getting knocked out by Tua from a punch that barely hit him?
Ali beat Mildenberger pretty easily. Ali was better at virtually everything than Michael Moorer.

[Ambling Alp]

With all due respects Alp, don't you think you might be a little bit over the top with your assessments? Other than Liston and Patterson, his opposition during that period wasn't notable, and Patterson was far from his best the night they fought.

I think a peak Frazier is a major problem for a young Ali, who hadn't yet developed the iron constitution, much of which came from the personal and professional hardships following his refusal of induction.

To say he would beat them all seems reasonable, but to imply that he would have few problems seems a pretty difficult opinion to defend.

His opposition over that period was better than Bowe, Holyfield's, Holmes, Norton's and Frazier's were.
Take out their best two opponents that they beat and it's nothing special.

They all had trouble in some of their fights, Ali never did.
I think he had the "Iron Constitution" then, he just didn't have to use it. I don't see the induction as having anything to do with making him tougher or have more heart or anything like that.

I completly disagree Ali had better opposition in the 60s compared with Frazier at his best.

Frazier: Bonavena, Machen, Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, Chuvalo and Ali himself.

That's better than Folley, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, and Terrell.

And Ali had competetive fights with Jones and Liston I (before Liston quit), and his fights with Mildenberger and Chuvalo were not exactly walks in the park. To say Ali "never" had trouble in his fights in the 60s is as ridiculous as Elmer saying Bowe surely beats Ali.

We are talking about Ali in prime. This post was about 1964-1967. The Doug Jones fight when Ali was on his way up doesn't count. Ali was completely dominaint in the fights in his prime. He never lost more than 3 rounds in any of those fights. The Chuvalo and Mildenberger fights were never in doubt at all.
I guess you could say that the Liston fight was competitive in the sense that Liston wasn't knocked down. However, he was hurt and beat up to the point where he quit after only 6 rounds.
Frazier had a lot of trouble with Bonavena and Ali and some trouble with Quarry. Even the Mathis fight was close for the first few rounds.
So no, Ali really didn't have much trouble in his prime (1964-1967.)

[Goodnight, Irene]

It doesn't count when Ali has trouble, because the first affair with Cooper was when he was on his way up. Frazier, "had trouble" with Bonavena (in his 12th pro fight!) & that counts.

[Robinson]

Ali has songs written about him.

[Ambling Alp]

I was talking about the 2nd Bonavena-Frazier fight in 1968.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I can't imagine what trouble you're referring to, then. Bonavena was busted up something fierce. Mathis had forty pounds on Frazier, & wasn't especially competitive.

You know perfectly well, Alp, that Frazier was a slow starter, so using the, "first couple of rounds were competitive" argument is diluted. You also know someone fighting in Frazier's style is going to have to endure more than Ali is in his style. I don't feel you're taking that into account. Mildenberger doubled Ali over with a bodyshot as Ali clowned in (I think?) the 12th round...that's no more damning than Frazier having a tough first round with Quarry.

[Robinson]

G.I,
But Ali has songs written about him !!!!!!!!

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yeah, well, Joe wrote his own songs

He may have regretted the insulting one he penned & performed directed at Foreman prior to their first fight, though

[Ambling Alp]

Whatever.
Frazier fights with Mathis, Quarry and Bonavena were more competitive than any of Ali's during his prime. Doesn't natter if Mathis weighed 40 more pounds. Last I checked, the heavyweight division is unlimited. I think you exaggerrated a little with the doubling over against Mildenberger. He was never in any trouble at all in that fight.

10-0, 8 knockouts. Never hurt, never knocked down. Never lost more than 3 rounds in any of the fights.

Again I ask, what style worked at all against Ali during this period?
Big punchers, pressure fighters, lefthooks, tall fighters, fighters with speed, exactly what?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Weight doesn't matter. I've heard it all, now. Making the claim Ali's title reign 1964-67 is arguably the best (or even one of the top five) in boxing history is as absurd as it comes.

[Ezzard]

There's got to be some middle ground on Ali... We just seem to be chasing our tails...with the same thread articulated in a slightly different way.

On one hand some think Ali is going to struggle with Bowe??? On the other hand others are arguing that Ali's 60's prime has now become as mythically untouchable as Tyson's.

There's no reason or logic in any of it, just some kind of fan/anti-based emotion to it all.