FAO: David Haye

Gray-Fox · Post by **Gray-Fox** » 22 Apr 2008, 23:35

I just read your interview on boxingtalk.com and I think you're a potentially great fighter, but please mate, you're not second in history to Evander Holyfield at cruiserweight. You've beaten two fighters, one being an old Mormeck, and the other being Enzo, who let's face it, is shit, and you did what you were supposed to with him. However, looking at the list of cruiserweights since its inception, there are intuitively guys who are all time greats by their name, and I guess I don't really have to check their records cos you only defended once!!

Anyway, there are solid arguments to suggest that Qawi, De Leon, Robert Daniels, Johnny Nelson, even O'Neil Bell and James Toney are more worthy t the weight than you, simply because they either made more defences, or beat BETTER fighters to capture the title. I don't for one minute suggest you couldn't have beaten any of these guys, but I'd be surprised if any SERIOUSLY respectable boxing journalist said you were second ever to Holyfield.

STP · Post by **STP** » 22 Apr 2008, 23:47

It doesn't mean a lot, anyway, because the CW's have only been around a few years... with little depth of fighters. Ofcourse.

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 23 Apr 2008, 03:57

STP wrote:It doesn't mean a lot, anyway, because the CW's have only been around a few years... with little depth of fighters. Ofcourse.

Exactly. Just like S Middle. There's not a legacy like the "old" weight classes, so Haye probably is the second best.

Gray-Fox · Post by **Gray-Fox** » 23 Apr 2008, 06:38

I'm well aware of the weight's age, but the aforementioned fighters all have a far greater claim to second place behind Holyfield.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 23 Apr 2008, 06:40

Depends on your stipulation of a cruiserweight.

If you forget about the title of the fight and actually judge fighters who fought between 175 and 200lbs, then Haye will struggle to make the top 100.

Marciano, Tunney, Moore......

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 23 Apr 2008, 06:45

Gray-Fox wrote:I'm well aware of the weight's age, but the aforementioned fighters all have a far greater claim to second place behind Holyfield.

Could you give you arguments for the below. I'm interested to know why you suggested them:

De Leon, Robert Daniels, Johnny Nelson, even O'Neil Bell and James Toney

Qawi is the only one I consider to be close to Haye, but just interested to know why you suggested the others.

Gray-Fox · Post by **Gray-Fox** » 23 Apr 2008, 06:48

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:
Gray-Fox wrote:I'm well aware of the weight's age, but the aforementioned fighters all have a far greater claim to second place behind Holyfield.
Could you give you arguments for the below. I'm interested to know why you suggested them:

De Leon, Robert Daniels, Johnny Nelson, even O'Neil Bell and James Toney

Qawi is the only one I consider to be close to Haye, but just interested to know why you suggested the others.

I judge best fighters at a weight based on:

1) Who they've beat
2) What title they held
3) How many defences they've made.

David Haye beat one good, but old fighter, and Enzo, who is shite. Anyone who thinks Enzo Mac was a good fighter needs their head testing. He had a big punch and looked good against completely washed up fighters.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 23 Apr 2008, 10:26

Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:
Gray-Fox wrote:I'm well aware of the weight's age, but the aforementioned fighters all have a far greater claim to second place behind Holyfield.
Could you give you arguments for the below. I'm interested to know why you suggested them:

De Leon, Robert Daniels, Johnny Nelson, even O'Neil Bell and James Toney

Qawi is the only one I consider to be close to Haye, but just interested to know why you suggested the others.

In terms of accomplishments at cruiserweight, Haye is pretty much in line with an O-Neil Bell (with wins over Rothmann, Sellers, Davis, and a younger Mormeck). Toney didn't do much at cruiser but his win over Jirov is much bigger than anything Haye has done.

In terms of actual ability, I'd rank Haye higher, but I don't see him beating the best 190 versions of Holyfield (obviously), Qawi, Toney, or even Jirov.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 23 Apr 2008, 10:35

If the cruiserweight limit had been 200lbs right from its start, then we would have seen alot better champions in its early days.

I think Haye is the start of guys beginning in the cruisers and as they age being able to step up to heavy and have an impact, so far only Holyfield has done it with much success.

Poncey · Post by **Poncey** » 23 Apr 2008, 10:40

dempseyfire wrote:
Emerson Poncey Name Ghent wrote:
Gray-Fox wrote:I'm well aware of the weight's age, but the aforementioned fighters all have a far greater claim to second place behind Holyfield.
Could you give you arguments for the below. I'm interested to know why you suggested them:

De Leon, Robert Daniels, Johnny Nelson, even O'Neil Bell and James Toney

Qawi is the only one I consider to be close to Haye, but just interested to know why you suggested the others.
In terms of accomplishments at cruiserweight, Haye is pretty much in line with an O-Neil Bell (with wins over Rothmann, Sellers, Davis, and a younger Mormeck). Toney didn't do much at cruiser but his win over Jirov is much bigger than anything Haye has done.

In terms of actual ability, I'd rank Haye higher, but I don't see him beating the best 190 versions of Holyfield (obviously), Qawi, Toney, or even Jirov.

What about Jirov or Toney at 200lbs?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 23 Apr 2008, 11:18

Toney at Cruiser would of beaten Haye, Toney would of torn him apart on the Inside and Haye hasn't shown how good he Is at Inside fighting which could let him down at Heavyweight.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Apr 2008, 11:39

Gray-Fox wrote:I'm well aware of the weight's age, but the aforementioned fighters all have a far greater claim to second place behind Holyfield.

Only Holyfield had more significant fights than Haye. The others you mention simplly lack the defining wins at cruiser.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Juan Carlos Gomez. He was a brilliant Cuban who made 10 defences of the WBC title. Nonetheless, even Gomez never had a big fight.

More title defences, re De Leon, Johnny Nelson? So what? Did Johnny Nelson hold more than one title? Did De Leon ever win a big fight?

Haye is #2 or #3 cruiserweight ever because he won significant fights. For real titles. You may realise that Haye is the only man in cruiser history to actually defend the proper, historian recognised world championship.

Holyfield unified and then went up. He never defended his title when it became undisputed. Haye won the lineal belt from Mormeck. (the IBF belt went when Bell had it and wouldn't fight Cunningham) Then he defended it vs one of the biggest puncher's in the division, Macca.

For good measure, he also KO'd a top ten world class ranked fighter Gurov, to win the European title.

Is Big Mac really so shit - Mac outclassed Braithwaite and ook what Big Truck went on to do.

Gray-Fox · Post by **Gray-Fox** » 23 Apr 2008, 11:55

Autobarn wrote:
Is Big Mac really so shit - Mac outclassed Braithwaite and ook what Big Truck went on to do.

What, KO a less than impressive newly professional Cuban?

Yoan Hernandez was probably the worst Cuban (at 81kg too, never a Cuban specialism) in the 2004 team. Hardly greatness.

black panther · Post by **black panther** » 23 Apr 2008, 13:19

You know I think its a great shame that all the decent fighters a crusierweight go up to heavyweight - I mean if crusierweight recieved a bit more attention and fighters were tempted to stay at 200lbs we could potentially have James Toney, Vassily Jirov, Juan Carlos Gomez, David Haye, Enzo Macc, Eddy Chambers, Sultan Ibragimov, Steve Cunningham, O'Neil Bell, Tomaz Adamek, Mormeck, Chris Byrd and Marco Huck all in the same division. With that list, forget unmarketable - thats damn near one of the best divisions in boxing. Why can't fighters just stay put in crusierweight hey? Sigh.

Grilling Machine · Post by **Grilling Machine** » 24 Apr 2008, 00:44

DavidPayne wrote:Marciano, Tunney, Moore......

Dempsey, Patterson, Foster, Qawi and the Spinks boys...

Liston and Frazier were close to 200 in their early years too.