Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

[dempseyfire]

Well I guess I will try to answer comments from several people.

I compared Louis opponents to Ali's man for man. I don't see how Bob Pastor is better than Chuvalo. I don't even see that as an argument.

Not surprising, considering your ignorance/bias towards Louis's era. Chuvalo was a very tough, durable guy but could be outboxed by class guys with chins. Pastor was an excellent boxer who beat Jimmy Bivins, Gus Lesnevich, Turkey Thompson, Roscoe Toles and drew with Nova and Rosenbloom. I love Chuvalo but the guy was outpointed by the likes of a 11 fight veteran Pete Rademacher.

Folley was washed up? He was the #1 contender. He was a much better fighter than Artuo Godoy.

Folley was 35 years old, and had a style completly dependent on reflexes. Godoy was like Chuvalo in that he was a very strong, steel jawed pressure fighter, but with a better defense (Chuvalo was a better puncher however) I definitely feel a 28 year old Godoy, coming in with non-stop pressure and body punching, with amazing stamina, was more dangerous than a cautious 35 year old Folley who had lost a few steps in the reflex department.

Cleveland Williams was washed up? Well, he was past his prime but he still had some gas in the tank. If Cleveland Williams was washed up, what were Jim Braddock and John Kenry Lewis when Louis fought them?
Williams was certainly better than Tony Galento. Galento's entire reputation is from knocking down Louis. He did nothing else of note in his entire career. Look at him on film against Max Baer.

More ignorance. I won't get into Williams' greatly depleted physical state again. John Henry Lewis may have been going blind in one eye but his resume pre Louis is certainly more impressive than Williams' post-shooting hitlist. I don't think a completly blind man beats Al Gainer defending the light HW title 4 months before fighting Louis.

Galento did nothing else of note? Your ignorance regarding Lou Nova, Nathan Mann, Leroy Haynes, and Eddie Blunt is just sad. He was extremely dirty and not polished at all but he hit as hard as Williams and unlike Cleveland didn't have his insides mashed about from getting shot. If Ali had beaten the pre-shooting Cleveland, you'd have no argument. But when William's best victory post 1964 was over Ted Gullick, you know that was not the same fighter.

I'm not going to get into the BS about the first Liston fight. The people around Liston say his shoulder really did hurt. How surprising.

So, an Ali opponent having an injury is automatic BS, while Ali BS (broke his jaw in the first round vs Norton, Liston quit vs Ali b/c he was afraid of getting 'beat up') is the Gospel. Typical.

[BoxBuzz]

Much in the way of good give and take....however dempsey, the buy in regarding Williams plummet from physical readiness may be over invested. He was not as invalid as some imagineers have painted him in the wake of his drama.

It is entirely possible that he suffered little if any real dimunition in the wake of what many would consider to be a career ending moment. His dedication to his own rehab could have more than made up for the damage. I'm not saying it is so, what I am saying is that it is entirely possible.

However you want to rate him, that moment may not have had as dramatic a negative impact as one might rightfully assume.

Especially in the wake of the evidence of his continuing career.

[The Great John L]

John L- I'm sorry if you think I have made too many posts. I am really just replying to other people's comments. I haven't made as many posts on this thread as some people.

No worries, it was merely a joke for those who remember the lengthy and impassioned postings that the legendary Boxrec HOFer BB49 used to write.

Please do post as often as you like. It’s all good my brother...

[dempseyfire]

Much in the way of good give and take....however dempsey, the buy in regarding Williams plummet from physical readiness may be over invested. He was not as invalid as some imagineers have painted him in the wake of his drama.

It is entirely possible that he suffered little if any real dimunition in the wake of what many would consider to be a career ending moment. His dedication to his own rehab could have more than made up for the damage. I'm not saying it is so, what I am saying is that it is entirely possible.

However you want to rate him, that moment may not have had as dramatic a negative impact as one might rightfully assume.

Especially in the wake of the evidence of his continuing career.

He would never beat another top 20 opponent after his operation and nearly dying. I don't think simply continuing a boxing career and being able to knock out tomato cans means the impact wasn't fairly substantial. I mean, the guy had permanently damaged intestines and kidneys, and a shrunken leg for crying out loud. That's not a myth. It was incredible in itself that Williams was ever able to compete on the professional level again.

[Ambling Alp]

dempseyfire- I guess do have a bias against the laye 1930's/Early heavyweights. They sucked. I have read over and over that they did. Outside of Louis, I haven't seen much on film that contradicts this.

Folley hadn't lost in 4 years. He was the #1 ranked contender. There was no evidence in recent fights that he was washed up. He didn't look bad at all in the fight against Ali.

Godoy and Galento would be forgotten if it wasn't for their fights with Louis. Galento was grossly out of shape, too short for a heavyweight, wild swinging, had no defense.

You mentioned Chuvalo bad points, how about the fact that he beat Jerry Quarry? Or that he gave Patterson a very tough fight in the fight of the year.

The great bob Pastor? He actaully got knocked out by Billy Conn. Conn scored 1 a grand total of 15 knockouts in 77 fights.

Conn scored 8 kos in 63 fights in his pre heavyweight days.
In his 14 fights as a heavyweight, he scored 7. That says a lot for the heavyweight division at the time.

Chuvalo would have eaten Pastor alive.

It's a well known fact that Lewis was going blind and in it for one last payday. It's no coincidence that he never fought again.

No I don't think Cleveland Williams was in his prime. However, he wasn't totally gone either.

You seriously think Liston was really hurt and that the fight was even? Ok lets pretend that is true. (Lets ignore the witness that saw Liston throw a stool in the lockeroom after the fight with his left hand.) What were his chances of winning without the shoulder injury? He looked like beaten man. He had been hurt, his face was marked up, and he was having a lot trouble catching Ali. He wasn't going to win, and sure wasn't going to last 9 more rounds.

[pundit]

The great bob Pastor? He actaully got knocked out by Billy Conn. Conn scored 1 a grand total of 15 knockouts in 77 fights.

And you found this information...... hmmmmm, let me guess.

[dempseyfire]

dempseyfire- I guess do have a bias against the laye 1930's/Early heavyweights. They sucked..

I really have nothing left to add.

[BoxBuzz]

Much in the way of good give and take....however dempsey, the buy in regarding Williams plummet from physical readiness may be over invested. He was not as invalid as some imagineers have painted him in the wake of his drama.

It is entirely possible that he suffered little if any real dimunition in the wake of what many would consider to be a career ending moment. His dedication to his own rehab could have more than made up for the damage. I'm not saying it is so, what I am saying is that it is entirely possible.

However you want to rate him, that moment may not have had as dramatic a negative impact as one might rightfully assume.

Especially in the wake of the evidence of his continuing career.

He would never beat another top 20 opponent after his operation and nearly dying. I don't think simply continuing a boxing career and being able to knock out tomato cans means the impact wasn't fairly substantial. I mean, the guy had permanently damaged intestines and kidneys, and a shrunken leg for crying out loud. That's not a myth. It was incredible in itself that Williams was ever able to compete on the professional level again.

Well that would be the popular notion...I'm really not arguing greatly. But like the famous triathalon competitor who was banging Sheryl Crowe, much can be accomplished even after what OTHERS would judge to be an end of the line event.

I'm just cautioning against being overly certain about just what it all meant for Williams. Sometimes those things are hard for others to define. But I won't argue that it's not a bad guess. But it is a guess nonetheless.

[yancey]

dempseyfire - You had the Liston-Ali fight even ? What are saying, it could have gone either way if Liston didn't "hurt" his shoulder? That is unbleievable. He won round 5 (the round Ali fought blind) and that was it. He was getting hit a lot more than Ali. He was hurt, Ali never was. He was getting marked up. I didn't think anybody really believed that Liston hurt his shoulder. He was getting beat, knew he wasn't going to win, so he took the easy way out and quit.

You are one of the few people on earth that thinks the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight was a draw. Ali hit Frazier a lot more than Frazier hit him. Even the nutjobs don't argue this one.

Ali beat the younger Frazier two out of 3 after the long layoff when he clearly wasn't as fast and didn't have the reflexes that he once did. He had plenty of success when he would dance around in spurts in all three of their fights.
Chuvalo's body shots weren't nearly enough. Ali still won almost every round.

The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

Uh, it seems you are unaware that many of the writers at ringside for Ali-Frazier II, including the famous Red Smith, scored the fight narrowly for Frazier.

It was ridiculous the number of times Ali got away with the illegal tactic of pulling Frazier's head down to make him ineffective up close, nearly 100 times in the fight, according to Eddie Futch's count.

[BoxBuzz]

dempseyfire - You had the Liston-Ali fight even ? What are saying, it could have gone either way if Liston didn't "hurt" his shoulder? That is unbleievable. He won round 5 (the round Ali fought blind) and that was it. He was getting hit a lot more than Ali. He was hurt, Ali never was. He was getting marked up. I didn't think anybody really believed that Liston hurt his shoulder. He was getting beat, knew he wasn't going to win, so he took the easy way out and quit.

You are one of the few people on earth that thinks the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight was a draw. Ali hit Frazier a lot more than Frazier hit him. Even the nutjobs don't argue this one.

Ali beat the younger Frazier two out of 3 after the long layoff when he clearly wasn't as fast and didn't have the reflexes that he once did. He had plenty of success when he would dance around in spurts in all three of their fights.
Chuvalo's body shots weren't nearly enough. Ali still won almost every round.

The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

Uh, it seems you are unaware that many of the writers at ringside for Ali-Frazier II, including the famous Red Smith, scored the fight narrowly for Frazier.

It was ridiculous the number of times Ali got away with the illegal tactic of pulling Frazier's head down to make him ineffective up close, nearly 100 times in the fight, according to Eddie Futch's count.

Please....that nonsense works both ways, if your going to complain about that you can complain that the ref also saved the audience from having to leave early that night due to a completely unacceptable 2nd round KO delivered by Ali. Wouldn't that have put a damper on the whole marketable trilogy.

[yancey]

dempseyfire - You had the Liston-Ali fight even ? What are saying, it could have gone either way if Liston didn't "hurt" his shoulder? That is unbleievable. He won round 5 (the round Ali fought blind) and that was it. He was getting hit a lot more than Ali. He was hurt, Ali never was. He was getting marked up. I didn't think anybody really believed that Liston hurt his shoulder. He was getting beat, knew he wasn't going to win, so he took the easy way out and quit.

You are one of the few people on earth that thinks the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight was a draw. Ali hit Frazier a lot more than Frazier hit him. Even the nutjobs don't argue this one.

Ali beat the younger Frazier two out of 3 after the long layoff when he clearly wasn't as fast and didn't have the reflexes that he once did. He had plenty of success when he would dance around in spurts in all three of their fights.
Chuvalo's body shots weren't nearly enough. Ali still won almost every round.

The Joe Louis title win streak was better? How about we actually take a look at that.
Here the comparison in chronological order:
1. Ali Sonny Liston. -Louis KO 8Jim Braddock (Louis got decked)
2. Ali beat Liston. -Louis won a tough 15 round decision over Tommy Farr
3. Ali beat Patterson. -Louis beat Nathan Mann.
4. Ali beat Chuvalo by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
5. Ali beat Henry Cooper. -Louis beat Harry Thomas
6. Ali beat Brian London. -Louis KO 1 Max Schmeling
7. Ali beat Karl Mildenberger.- Louis beat John Henry Lewis
8. Ali beat Cleveland Williams.-Louis beat Tony Galento (Louis got decked)
9. Ali beat Terrell by lopsided decision. -Louis beat Bob Pastor
10. Ali beat Zora Folley. -Louis won a tough decision over Artuo Godoy.

Man for man, Ali's opponents were better. Fight #6, Schmeling was better than London. I'll give Louis Fight #7, Lewis being better than Mildenberger. The rest of the time Ali's opponents were better.
If you don't want to count #2 because of all the controversy with Liston then don't count Fight #7 for Louis since John Henry Lewis was almost blind and was looking for a payday before he retired.

8 out of the 10 Ali's opponents were superior.
Louis got decked twice, Ali wasn't knocked down.
Both won 8 of the their 10 by KO.
Louis' fights that went the distance were more competitive than Ali's.

Louis was either knocked down or had a tough fight in 4 of his 10 fights. This didn't happen to Ali in any of his fights. This isn't that hard to figure out. Ali had far less trouble against better overall competition than Louis. Ali was more impressive.

Uh, it seems you are unaware that many of the writers at ringside for Ali-Frazier II, including the famous Red Smith, scored the fight narrowly for Frazier.

It was ridiculous the number of times Ali got away with the illegal tactic of pulling Frazier's head down to make him ineffective up close, nearly 100 times in the fight, according to Eddie Futch's count.

Please....that nonsense works both ways, if your going to complain about that you can complain that the ref also saved the audience from having to leave early that night due to a completely unacceptable 2nd round KO delivered by Ali. Wouldn't that have put a damper on the whole marketable trilogy.

Ali wasn't anywhere close to knocking out Frazier in the 2nd round.

[Ambling Alp]

The great bob Pastor? He actaully got knocked out by Billy Conn. Conn scored 1 a grand total of 15 knockouts in 77 fights.

And you found this information...... hmmmmm, let me guess.

This is what the Boxrec Database has.
The books "The Boxing Register", "In This Corner", and "The Encyclopedia of Boxing" all have him with only 14 knockouts in 76 fights. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and credited him with 15 knockouts.

[p4p1]

i dont think any od these guys beat a prime ali more than once in a series of fights ali beats them all

bullshit, he is not invencible, he got to lose at some point.

if you read my post you would realize i said that in a series of fights with each of these guys he wins more than he loses

[Collins2000]

i dont think any od these guys beat a prime ali more than once in a series of fights ali beats them all

bullshit, he is not invencible, he got to lose at some point.

if you read my post you would realize i said that in a series of fights with each of these guys he wins more than he loses

You'll need to dumb it down for him, P4P. He aint very smart.

[p4p1]

im getting that feeling aswell

[Goodnight, Irene]

Surprised Oscar De La Hoya wasn't included in that list.

[Ezzard]

Well I guess I will try to answer comments from several people.

I compared Louis opponents to Ali's man for man. I don't see how Bob Pastor is better than Chuvalo. I don't even see that as an argument.
Folley was washed up? He was the #1 contender. He was a much better fighter than Artuo Godoy.
Cleveland Williams was washed up? Well, he was past his prime but he still had some gas in the tank. If Cleveland Williams was washed up, what were Jim Braddock and John Kenry Lewis when Louis fought them?
Williams was certainly better than Tony Galento. Galento's entire reputation is from knocking down Louis. He did nothing else of note in his entire career. Look at him on film against Max Baer. It's on youtube.

I'm not going to get into the BS about the first Liston fight. The people around Liston say his shoulder really did hurt. How surprising.

Tommy Farr was better than Patterson on the night that ali beat Patterson? Ok, I can just as easily say that Brian London was better than Schmeling (who was clueless once he got hurt) on the night Louis beat Schmeling. Karl Mildenberger was certainly a lot better than the blind John Henry Lewis looking for one last payday that Louis fought.

In 4 of Louis' 10 fights he either had a tough 15 round ecdion or got decked. This didn't happen in any of Ali's fights.

Ezzard-I will ask the question that no one wants to answer. What could Ali have done to make his reign better?
He beat a very good champion to win the title. (As opposed to beating one of the worst champions who hadn't fought in 2 years.)
He defended the title a lot.
He didn't duck anyone.
All four times that he defended his title against a challenger from another country he fought in their native country. (Very few champions from the US do this.)
He didn't have any remotely close calls.
What could he have done to make this better?

John L- I'm sorry if you think I have made too many posts. I am really just replying to other people's comments. I haven't made as many posts on this thread as some people.

Alp, he couldn't have done anything more because there were no great opponents. Having a great reign, being thought of as the greatest is about being lucky enough for your career to coincide with other great figthers who you are just a little better than or who you have the right style to defeat. This way you prove it.

This is why I have Ali number 1 and Louis number 2. Louis to my eye seems just as great a boxer but Ali beat more great fighters in his career. Put Louis in Ali's era and vice-versa and I'd probably rank Louis the better. My guess is that Johnson and Holmes would similarly take top spot...but I don't feel quite as confident in saying that.

[BoxBuzz]

Uh, it seems you are unaware that many of the writers at ringside for Ali-Frazier II, including the famous Red Smith, scored the fight narrowly for Frazier.

It was ridiculous the number of times Ali got away with the illegal tactic of pulling Frazier's head down to make him ineffective up close, nearly 100 times in the fight, according to Eddie Futch's count.

Please....that nonsense works both ways, if your going to complain about that you can complain that the ref also saved the audience from having to leave early that night due to a completely unacceptable 2nd round KO delivered by Ali. Wouldn't that have put a damper on the whole marketable trilogy.

Ali wasn't anywhere close to knocking out Frazier in the 2nd round.

Well depending on your pre concieved notions on the matter perhaps some can't be convinced. I know we all want to believe that Frazier would have survived wthout the refs help and you can make the case that he would have. But we will never know for sure due to the fact that the ref for whatever reason put a stop to the one sided nature of the moment. Frazier was definately caught quite nicely and in the entire trilogy it was the only moment I can think of that Frazier was that rocked.....some have claimed conspiracy, I just chalk it up to clumsy refereeing. I think a KD might have transpired but I would agree that a KO was unlikely.

But that shot was profound and Frazier was absolutely being backed up. It was so unusual that to watch it makes you think someone started running the film backwards.

[Robinson]

I dont think Ali was going to stop Frazier in that second.

[Smokin'Moe]

Ali hit frazier with plenty of shots that stopped Joe in his tracks but he was nowhere near the KO

the only way to Ko a Joe Frazier is Foreman Style!!
chin out, hands free, and sluggin like crazy

[yancey]

Ali hit frazier with plenty of shots that stopped Joe in his tracks but he was nowhere near the KO

the only way to Ko a Joe Frazier is Foreman Style!!
chin out, hands free, and sluggin like crazy

And since you are "hands free" use 'em to illegally push your opponent
away to keep him from getting to the inside.

Like your handle, Smokin' Moe.

[Smokin'Moe]

Ali hit frazier with plenty of shots that stopped Joe in his tracks but he was nowhere near the KO

the only way to Ko a Joe Frazier is Foreman Style!!
chin out, hands free, and sluggin like crazy

And since you are "hands free" use 'em to illegally push your opponent
away to keep him from getting to the inside.

Like your handle, Smokin' Moe.

yeah foreman wasn't the cleanest fighter but when you got little to no skill and all power, you gotta pull some unorthodox sh*t once in a while

by the way, IMO joe frazier of 1970 would have a greater chance and possibly have beaten big george

[yancey]

Ali hit frazier with plenty of shots that stopped Joe in his tracks but he was nowhere near the KO

the only way to Ko a Joe Frazier is Foreman Style!!
chin out, hands free, and sluggin like crazy

And since you are "hands free" use 'em to illegally push your opponent
away to keep him from getting to the inside.

Like your handle, Smokin' Moe.

yeah foreman wasn't the cleanest fighter but when you got little to no skill and all power, you gotta pull some unorthodox sh*t once in a while

by the way, IMO joe frazier of 1970 would have a greater chance and possibly have beaten big george

Definitely agree that the prime Frazier of 69-70, with his greater head movement and bobbing weaving, would have stood a greater chance against Big George.

In fact, if Frazier got to round 5 in decent condition, I think the odds of him ultimately prevailing increase by the minute.

All of this dependent on a strong referee who won't permit George to push and shove.

[elmersalsa]

bullshit, he is not invencible, he got to lose at some point.

if you read my post you would realize i said that in a series of fights with each of these guys he wins more than he loses

You'll need to dumb it down for him, P4P. He aint very smart.

Maybe I am not as dumb as you cocksucker!!!

[Collins2000]

if you read my post you would realize i said that in a series of fights with each of these guys he wins more than he loses

You'll need to dumb it down for him, P4P. He aint very smart.

Maybe I am not as dumb as you cocksucker!!!

Well empirical evidence suggests you are one of the least intelligent and easily the least knowledgable of the regular poster on here.