Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

[m1kee50]

7. A great technique of those un-named folks is to build themselves up by imagining that the denigration of others makes for a great and delightful elevator ride for themselves.

spot on. Its called a lift, not an elevator.

[Collins2000]

What on earth do we need google for when we have the fully upgraded and state of the art "Collins2000" at the ready? And since when does a fully antiquated...uh I mean automated search engine develop such an attitude?

Here he is, boxrec's self-proclaimed funny man. Zero knowledge of boxing but 70 years experience as a clown.

Buzz, after all your years in showbiz, surely you know it's better when you have the crowd laughing with you rather than at you.

9. Collins tells me he is the most advanced pugilistic pontificator the planet has ever produced, and will most likely only be best appreciated far after he has shuffled off his mortal coil.

When did I ever say that, Buzz?

I know a fair bit about certain fighters I followed closely. I usually post here when I see them being labeled as frauds etc or when someone starts peddling opinion as fact.

Many eras I know next to nothing about but even with just a basic knowledge of boxing I can tell that certain posters who claim to be experts on those eras also know next to nothing. Doesn't stop them posting opinion as fact and bragging about their (non-existant) in-depth knowledge.

But getting back to the question, Buzz. When did I ever tell you I was "the most advanced pugilistic pontificator the planet has ever produced"?

Please don't post 12 glib paragraphs dodging the question. A simple "Sorry Collins, I was lying again" will suffice.

[BoxBuzz]

Here he is, boxrec's self-proclaimed funny man. Zero knowledge of boxing but 70 years experience as a clown.

Buzz, after all your years in showbiz, surely you know it's better when you have the crowd laughing with you rather than at you.

9. Collins tells me he is the most advanced pugilistic pontificator the planet has ever produced, and will most likely only be best appreciated far after he has shuffled off his mortal coil.

When did I ever say that, Buzz?

I know a fair bit about certain fighters I followed closely. I usually post here when I see them being labeled as frauds etc or when someone starts peddling opinion as fact.

Many eras I know next to nothing about but even with just a basic knowledge of boxing I can tell that certain posters who claim to be experts on those eras also know next to nothing. Doesn't stop them posting opinion as fact and bragging about their (non-existant) in-depth knowledge.

But getting back to the question, Buzz. When did I ever tell you I was "the most advanced pugilistic pontificator the planet has ever produced"?

Please don't post 12 glib paragraphs dodging the question. A simple "Sorry Collins, I was lying again" will suffice.

When you say "again" do you mean to say "still"? Or are you accusing me of at some point being honest?

[Collins2000]

9. Collins tells me he is the most advanced pugilistic pontificator the planet has ever produced, and will most likely only be best appreciated far after he has shuffled off his mortal coil.

When did I ever say that, Buzz?

I know a fair bit about certain fighters I followed closely. I usually post here when I see them being labeled as frauds etc or when someone starts peddling opinion as fact.

Many eras I know next to nothing about but even with just a basic knowledge of boxing I can tell that certain posters who claim to be experts on those eras also know next to nothing. Doesn't stop them posting opinion as fact and bragging about their (non-existant) in-depth knowledge.

But getting back to the question, Buzz. When did I ever tell you I was "the most advanced pugilistic pontificator the planet has ever produced"?

Please don't post 12 glib paragraphs dodging the question. A simple "Sorry Collins, I was lying again" will suffice.

When you say "again" do you mean to say "still"? Or are you accusing me of at some point being honest?

Your questions make no sense.

I suppose that was the intent. Obfuscate the issue rather than admit you were caught in a lie.

You can leave off the word 'again' if you like. Though we both know it isn't the first time.

That would mean all you had to write was "Sorry Collins, I was lying".

Let's see how you get on this time.

[BoxBuzz]

Think of it as the creative license one takes whils't creating a world class docu-drama.

[Bricks]

Posted by elemersalsa "5. Riddick Bowe circa 1991-92

Why is it that one east coast writer made the ridiculous quote " The Bowe that beat Holyfield in 1992 could have beaten any HW in history" and a whole generation of internet idiots have clung onto this "fashionable" statement.

This would be the same Bowe, who in this thread is being lauded for his great jab, and size and strength but who on the night in question,let a smaller weaker Holyfield work his way in easily and had trouble eaking out a close decision. It goes without saying the Frazier of 1971 and the Foreman of 1972 would have murdered that Holyfield.

[Bricks]

Posted by elemersalsa "5. Riddick Bowe circa 1991-92

Why is it that one east coast writer made the ridiculous quote " The Bowe that beat Holyfield in 1992 could have beaten any HW in history" and a whole generation of internet idiots have clung onto this "fashionable" statement.

This would be the same Bowe, who in this thread is being lauded for his great jab, and size and strength but who on the night in question,let a smaller weaker Holyfield work his way in easily and had trouble eaking out a close decision. It goes without saying the Frazier of 1971 and the Foreman of 1972 would have murdered that Holyfield.

[Bricks]

Posted by elemersalsa "5. Riddick Bowe circa 1991-92

Why is it that one east coast writer made the ridiculous quote " The Bowe that beat Holyfield in 1992 could have beaten any HW in history" and a whole generation of internet idiots have clung onto this "fashionable" statement.

This would be the same Bowe, who in this thread is being lauded for his great jab, and size and strength but who on the night in question,let a smaller weaker Holyfield work his way in easily and had trouble eaking out a close decision. It goes without saying the Frazier of 1971 and the Foreman of 1972 would have murdered that Holyfield.

[Collins2000]

Think of it as the creative license one takes whils't creating a world class docu-drama.

Come on, man. It was mindless drivel. As usual.

Lay off the intentional attempts at comedy and just stick to posting your views on boxing. That way you'll be sure to generate plenty of laughs.

[BoxBuzz]

Think of it as the creative license one takes whils't creating a world class docu-drama.

Come on, man. It was mindless drivel. As usual.

Lay off the intentional attempts at comedy and just stick to posting your views on boxing. That way you'll be sure to generate plenty of laughs.

Well, if you say so.......your the talent....I'm just the straight man. At any rate I've managed to get your mind off of poor ol' granberry if only for the moment.

Sadly I must take leave for a few weeks and will only be making brief stops at the libray to check in. I hope you and gran take it easy on each other in my absence.....good luck, and thanks for all the fish!

[Collins2000]

Think of it as the creative license one takes whils't creating a world class docu-drama.

Come on, man. It was mindless drivel. As usual.

Lay off the intentional attempts at comedy and just stick to posting your views on boxing. That way you'll be sure to generate plenty of laughs.

Well, if you say so.......your the talent....I'm just the straight man. At any rate I've managed to get your mind off of poor ol' granberry if only for the moment.

Sadly I must take leave for a few weeks and will only be making brief stops at the libray to check in. I hope you and gran take it easy on each other in my absence.....good luck, and thanks for all the fish!

Even though you are one of the biggest liars I have ever met. Buzz, I still like you and wish you all the best on your holidays.

Please don't keep mentioning terap every time you post to me. it's almost as if you enjoy watching me and him rolling around in the mud. It makes me wonder who is worse, us or YOU. No wonder terap calls you The Enabler or whatever it is.

[Robinson]

Terap sounds like a bad brand of tea

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Why is it that one east coast writer made the ridiculous quote " The Bowe that beat Holyfield in 1992 could have beaten any HW in history" and a whole generation of internet idiots have clung onto this "fashionable" statement.

This would be the same Bowe, who in this thread is being lauded for his great jab, and size and strength but who on the night in question,let a smaller weaker Holyfield work his way in easily and had trouble eaking out a close decision. It goes without saying the Frazier of 1971 and the Foreman of 1972 would have murdered that Holyfield." - Mugabi

I agree with the general sentiment of your post, however, in no way, shape or form did Bowe, "eek out" his points victory over Holyfield. It was competitive, but there was no doubt who the winner was when the final bell rang.

A sterling performance from a fighter history has short-changed --- due in no small part to his own fault, of course, but short-changed, nonetheless.

[Robinson]

Lets also not forget that in 1992 we had a pretty damned capable Holyfield.

Also, while his challengers were not at there best or 'greats' Bowe did not struggle in his title defences until he met Holyfield. And even then that was still a damned close and well fought battle, even with the fan man.

What Bowe became afterwards was unfortunate, but he still was a dominant fighter and showed talent even if it was fading.

I personally think that in that brief window of time, Bowe gives a lot of ATG hard fights. Against Ali he does struggle in my opinion. A good jabber, mover like Ali seems to trouble Bowe.

Frazier on the other hand...im sorry to say this Yancey and Frazier's men..but I feel that Bowe has the size, power and tools to blow Joe away after some good early rounds.

Just my opinions.

[dempseyfire]

Lets also not forget that in 1992 we had a pretty damned capable Holyfield.

Also, while his challengers were not at there best or 'greats' Bowe did not struggle in his title defences until he met Holyfield. And even then that was still a damned close and well fought battle, even with the fan man.

What Bowe became afterwards was unfortunate, but he still was a dominant fighter and showed talent even if it was fading.

I personally think that in that brief window of time, Bowe gives a lot of ATG hard fights. Against Ali he does struggle in my opinion. A good jabber, mover like Ali seems to trouble Bowe.

Frazier on the other hand...im sorry to say this Yancey and Frazier's men..but I feel that Bowe has the size, power and tools to blow Joe away after some good early rounds.

Just my opinions.

Bowe didn't struggle?? He was 'defending' vs the likes of Jesse Ferguson for crying out loud.

Bowe to me was a very good capable fighter who had a great fight vs a Holyfield who played right into his gameplan ie laying on the inside and slugging. I think he was better than Buster Douglas but I see his career in the same fashion; revolving around one fight.

I never saw Bowe deal with a truly class guy who could punch and move, give angles etc. EVER. A fading Holyfield did the trick in their rematch, and if he had been healthy the result of their rubber-match would've been a knockout for Holyfield. The only other guy on Bowe's resume who had class skills was Tubbs, and you could argue their fight could've gone either way. Who else is there? Coatzer? Gonzales? Herbie Hide??

Yes he had a fine jab and great inside skills for a big man. He also had suspect stamina and his defense was pretty horrible. He also had awful focus and often seemed to just fall asleep in the ring, until Futch and his corner would be driven insane.

Bowe can win rounds but there's no way he's ever handling an Ali, Frazier, Dempsey, Louis, Liston etc. Lennox would've beaten him too, and this is tough to admit as at the time I loathed Lewis and really wanted Bowe to knock him out.

[yancey]

Lets also not forget that in 1992 we had a pretty damned capable Holyfield.

Also, while his challengers were not at there best or 'greats' Bowe did not struggle in his title defences until he met Holyfield. And even then that was still a damned close and well fought battle, even with the fan man.

What Bowe became afterwards was unfortunate, but he still was a dominant fighter and showed talent even if it was fading.

I personally think that in that brief window of time, Bowe gives a lot of ATG hard fights. Against Ali he does struggle in my opinion. A good jabber, mover like Ali seems to trouble Bowe.

Frazier on the other hand...im sorry to say this Yancey and Frazier's men..but I feel that Bowe has the size, power and tools to blow Joe away after some good early rounds.

Just my opinions.

Frazier would be arrested for what he would do to Bowe.

p.s. Futch, who of course worked with Frazier and Bowe, also thought Joe would win convincingly against Bowe.

[Robinson]

Yancey
Yeah but you are naturally biased ;)

DF,

Yes he did cover up and protect himself at times against Fergusson, but he still did win all 2 rounds convincingly....

Name another HW champion in history who did not ateast lose one round against a lesser quality opponent ? Not to mention one that he KO's early in the bout.

Like I said before I think good jabbers and movers and guys with a bith of size do well against him. Say a Ali, Holmes, etc. Smaller guys would be easy for him to muscle and work well against.

Bowe was lazy and did take time of in rounds, that was one of his 'qualities' but he still had good power and speed for his size and his chin was pretty decent to.

Maybe in a boxing simulator or a cigar stenched boxing writer may conclude that a Dempsey or Marciano owns Bowe...thats great. But if for what ever reason some weird space aliens pulled some cosmic strings and had a box off in an ATG round robin tournament...I think perhaps maybe
Bowe would fare better against these tough smaller men.

In any case, I think Ali would do suprisingly well against Bowe and while struggling would take the fight via dec.

kym

[dempseyfire]

Yancey
Yeah but you are naturally biased ;)

DF,

Yes he did cover up and protect himself at times against Fergusson, but he still did win all 2 rounds convincingly....

Name another HW champion in history who did not ateast lose one round against a lesser quality opponent ? Not to mention one that he KO's early in the bout.

Like I said before I think good jabbers and movers and guys with a bith of size do well against him. Say a Ali, Holmes, etc. Smaller guys would be easy for him to muscle and work well against.

Bowe was lazy and did take time of in rounds, that was one of his 'qualities' but he still had good power and speed for his size and his chin was pretty decent to.

Maybe in a boxing simulator or a cigar stenched boxing writer may conclude that a Dempsey or Marciano owns Bowe...thats great. But if for what ever reason some weird space aliens pulled some cosmic strings and had a box off in an ATG round robin tournament...I think perhaps maybe
Bowe would fare better against these tough smaller men.

In any case, I think Ali would do suprisingly well against Bowe and while struggling would take the fight via dec.

kym

I wasn't thinking of the Ferguson bout when I mentioned fights Bowe didn't look great in. That was just one of the journeyman level fighters he defended the title against.

What small quality fighter did Bowe ever beat besides Holyfield?? And Holyfield bested him in the rematch and should have beat him in the rubber match to make it 2 out of 3.

The likes of Frazier and Dempsey in their prime were better punchers, harder to hit, and had better stamina than Holyfield. Bowe never had the explosive offensive firepower of a young Foreman, he was a hard hitter who would eventually catch guys with glass jaws (as he did with Seldon and Hide) but watching him vs Tubbs, Tillery, Coatzer, Holyfield II and III etc. I see a good capable Heavyweight, but not near being a great one.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...What small quality fighter did Bowe ever beat besides Holyfield?? And Holyfield bested him in the rematch and should have beat him in the rubber match to make it 2 out of 3..." - Dempsey

That could quite easily be turned on it's head, though. You can make the case Bowe won their second fight (myself, I cannot get away from a 114-113 scoreline in Bowe's favour), so it could quite readily have been 3/3 for Bowe against Holyfield.

I do think Frazier struggles with a peak Bowe. He's not Foreman in terms of raw power, but he's a better technical fighter, & can certainly hit hard enough to hurt Frazier, at any rate. It'd be an awful tough few early rounds for Joe (where most of Riddick's KO's occurred), in which I would not be terribly surprised if he got to Frazier. I think, all things considered, I would favour Frazier to weather an early storm & stop Bowe late, but I wouldn't put money down on it.

Dempsey would blow Bowe away early, IMO. Bowe's defense was awful, & he'd be hurt badly. Dempsey would stop him, in my book.

[dempseyfire]

"...What small quality fighter did Bowe ever beat besides Holyfield?? And Holyfield bested him in the rematch and should have beat him in the rubber match to make it 2 out of 3..." - Dempsey

That could quite easily be turned on it's head, though. You can make the case Bowe won their second fight (myself, I cannot get away from a 114-113 scoreline in Bowe's favour), so it could quite readily have been 3/3 for Bowe against Holyfield.

I do think Frazier struggles with a peak Bowe. He's not Foreman in terms of raw power, but he's a better technical fighter, & can certainly hit hard enough to hurt Frazier, at any rate. It'd be an awful tough few early rounds for Joe (where most of Riddick's KO's occurred), in which I would not be terribly surprised if he got to Frazier. I think, all things considered, I would favour Frazier to weather an early storm & stop Bowe late, but I wouldn't put money down on it.

Dempsey would blow Bowe away early, IMO. Bowe's defense was awful, & he'd be hurt badly. Dempsey would stop him, in my book.

Frazier will probably lose the first two rounds, but I can't see any way in which Bowe manages to put Frazier away, whose chin was excellent. I don't understand why the Foreman fight suddenly makes Frazier vulnerable against anyone with a punch early. I actually see the younger Foreman as being quicker than Bowe. Bowe had ok handspeed for a big guy but I see Frazier easily rolling/slipping the wide majority his shots.

Frazier was hittable vs the likes of Ali, Mathis Sr. and Ellis, extremely quick and sharp punchers. Even Bugner had much quicker hands than Riddick. Vs Bowe I think Frazier would find the difference in handspeed extremely favorable and that Bowe would be extremely easy to counter with his two handed attack to the body and the left hook to the chin.

[observer1]

Prime Frazier destroys Prime Bowe.

Bowe had some Solid Strength, but lets not forget Frazier was Tough.

People think Frazier was weak due to what happened against Foreman. But that was simply due the contrast of styles..

Bowe on the other hand was tailor made for Frazier..

Frazier would be arrested for what he would do to Bowe.

There you go..

These guys fought for 15 Rounds too.. don't forget

[raylawpc]

He's not Foreman in terms of raw power, but he's a better technical fighter, & can certainly hit hard enough to hurt Frazier, at any rate.

In what aspects of the game do you find Bowe better technically than Foreman?

[Cap]

Riddick Bowe was roughly the equivalent of a hungover George Godfrey (1930s version). Nothing special.

Holyfield would do about as well against Ali as Ron Lyle did.

Larry Holmes got a gift decision against Ken Norton, who lost 2 out of 3 to an Ali who was not in his prime.

Joe Frazier actually did beat Ali, but couldn't ever repeat his 1971 performance.

Really difficult to say how the oldtimers like Tunney, Louis, Dempsey, etc would have fared against Ali, who was never a "complete" fighter.

[dempseyfire]

Larry Holmes got a gift decision against Ken Norton,

.

Post your scorecard. Great effort by Norton but CLEAR decision win for Holmes. And I pulled for Norton.

[Cap]

It was lost with all my other scorecards in the great flood of '89.

It was in all the papers.

I do distinctly recall watching Norton beat the snot out of Holmes and then saying afterwards,"Gee. That Holmes guy sure got a gift decision over Norton."

Cap