According to the original pro boxing rules written up by George Atkinson of "The Sporting Life" in 1890 and seconded by the Marquis of Queensberry, clinching was a foul and subject to disqualification if attempted a second time. This was why in the early days in England the referee was able to sit outside the ring. Clinching came into vogue in the United States as American prize fighters introduced wrestling tactics.
Cap
Clinching a Foul
When Bonecrusher Smith clinched against Mike Tyson, "referee" Mills Lane took a round away from him as early as the SECOND ROUND, for holding.
During the SAME TIME PERIOD, "referee" Richard STEAL gave Sugar Ray Leonard over thirty warnings BY NAME for holding, and NEVER TOOK A POINT AWAY from Leonard.
During the SAME TIME PERIOD, "referee" Richard STEAL gave Sugar Ray Leonard over thirty warnings BY NAME for holding, and NEVER TOOK A POINT AWAY from Leonard.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
The Marquis of Queensbury Rules (1867):
1.To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
2.No wrestling or hugging allowed.
3.The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
4. If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man.
5. A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
6. No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
7. Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
8. The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
9. A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
10. No shoes or boots with springs allowed.
The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised rules of the London Prize Ring.
This is kind of interesting.
-Rule #1 regarding a 24 foot ring is interesting. It's been quite common for rings to be smaller than this.
-Rule #4 mentions that a fighter scoring a knockdown must go to a corner, though it doesn't say a neutral corner. This wasn't really enforced.
Rule #2 states that wrestling and hugging isn't allowed. This has been usually allowed.
Perhaps most importantly, it doesn't say what the penalty is when the rules are violated. No mention of warnings, rounds taking away, disqualification etc.
1.To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
2.No wrestling or hugging allowed.
3.The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
4. If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man.
5. A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
6. No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
7. Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
8. The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
9. A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
10. No shoes or boots with springs allowed.
The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised rules of the London Prize Ring.
This is kind of interesting.
-Rule #1 regarding a 24 foot ring is interesting. It's been quite common for rings to be smaller than this.
-Rule #4 mentions that a fighter scoring a knockdown must go to a corner, though it doesn't say a neutral corner. This wasn't really enforced.
Rule #2 states that wrestling and hugging isn't allowed. This has been usually allowed.
Perhaps most importantly, it doesn't say what the penalty is when the rules are violated. No mention of warnings, rounds taking away, disqualification etc.
I'm not going to go against any fighters here, and Smith did hold for dear life it seemed, but there is a real lack of consistency in boxing. With promoters holding all the power it seems that all of the world bodies and refs are essentially toothless. All that matters is that the money fighter keeps on winning and the bandwagon keeps on rolling.granberry wrote:When Bonecrusher Smith clinched against Mike Tyson, "referee" Mills Lane took a round away from him as early as the SECOND ROUND, for holding.
During the SAME TIME PERIOD, "referee" Richard STEAL gave Sugar Ray Leonard over thirty warnings BY NAME for holding, and NEVER TOOK A POINT AWAY from Leonard.
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15688
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
How many here think it's time to clarify the rules of boxing and then really enforce them in standard fashion everywhere? If clinching is a foul, then give one warning before you take away a point. If the ring is supposed to be 24-feet square then all rings have to be 24-feet square. Boxing needs to get hardass about enforcing its rules so that casual fans are impressed by the sport's integrity.
Cap
Cap
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adamheight
- Editor
- Posts: 1734
- Joined: 03 Apr 2008, 02:28
I don't think "clinching" is a foul under the rules of any boxing commission. Nevada, for example, defines "[h]olding or deliberately maintaining a clinch" as a foul. NAC 467.675: "Acts constituting fouls in boxing."Cap wrote:How many here think it's time to clarify the rules of boxing and then really enforce them in standard fashion everywhere? If clinching is a foul, then give one warning before you take away a point. If the ring is supposed to be 24-feet square then all rings have to be 24-feet square. Boxing needs to get hardass about enforcing its rules so that casual fans are impressed by the sport's integrity.
Cap
In fact, here are all of the fouls listed in Nevada, whose rules are probably representative of most states:
1. Hitting below the belt.
2. Hitting an opponent who is down or is getting up after being down.
3. Holding an opponent with one hand and hitting with the other.
4. Holding or deliberately maintaining a clinch.
5. Wrestling or kicking.
6. If the referee has signaled that the opponent has been knocked out, striking an opponent who is helpless as a result of previous blows and so supported by the ropes that he does not fall.
7. Butting with the head or shoulder or using the knee.
8. Hitting with the open glove, the butt of the hand, the wrist or the elbow, and all backhand blows.
9. Purposely going down without being hit.
10. Striking deliberately at that part of the body over the kidneys.
11. Deliberately using the rabbit punch.
12. Jabbing the opponent’s eyes with the thumb of the glove.
13. Using abusive language in the ring.
14. Engaging in any unsportsmanlike trick or action which causes injury to an opponent.
15. Hitting on the break.
16. Hitting after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
17. Hitting an opponent whose head is between and outside of the ropes.
18. Pushing an opponent about the ring or into the ropes.
And, disqualification is not automatic. ("If an unarmed combatant commits a foul, the referee may deduct points from him or disqualify him." NAC 467.682.) The resulting outcomes are quite extensive (and depend largely on whether the foul was intentional or accidental), and cover four rather lengthy sections of the Nevada rules.
Nevada calls for a 20 foot ring. NAC 467.442.
The problem is that each state's commission has its own rules. The only way to achieve uniformity nationwide is to have a national boxing commission.
Everybody here who wants boxing to be regulated by the Department of Health and Human Services, raise your hand . . .Clinching was considered a foul at one time.
Whether you like it or not, many things even in your country are still regulated, despite the efforts of special interest groups. Why do you have a state commission? Why have all those bureaucrats at the state capital tell you what to do? In fact, why not let boxing(promoters) poilce itself? Lets get back to 20 round bouts or even fights to the finish, and whats the deal with those nancy-boy boxing gloves?
Wake up. Boxing in America needs a national organization to regulate the sport similar to the NHL for hockey and the NFL, etc. You need a Secretary of Sport to call together the promoters, managers and boxers and tell them if they want to continue operating they have to form a true governing body for the whole country. Prohibit the participation of all alphabet soup bodies like the WBC, WBA, etc. If any fighter from another country wants to compete in the USA he has to apply to this new National Boxing Council for a permit. It would work if given half a chance.
Whether you like it or not, many things even in your country are still regulated, despite the efforts of special interest groups. Why do you have a state commission? Why have all those bureaucrats at the state capital tell you what to do? In fact, why not let boxing(promoters) poilce itself? Lets get back to 20 round bouts or even fights to the finish, and whats the deal with those nancy-boy boxing gloves?
Wake up. Boxing in America needs a national organization to regulate the sport similar to the NHL for hockey and the NFL, etc. You need a Secretary of Sport to call together the promoters, managers and boxers and tell them if they want to continue operating they have to form a true governing body for the whole country. Prohibit the participation of all alphabet soup bodies like the WBC, WBA, etc. If any fighter from another country wants to compete in the USA he has to apply to this new National Boxing Council for a permit. It would work if given half a chance.
I'm not sure clinching was ever a foul under the MQ rules.Cap wrote:Clinching was considered a foul at one time.
Whether you like it or not, many things even in your country are still regulated, despite the efforts of special interest groups. Why do you have a state commission? Why have all those bureaucrats at the state capital tell you what to do? In fact, why not let boxing(promoters) poilce itself? Lets get back to 20 round bouts or even fights to the finish, and whats the deal with those nancy-boy boxing gloves?
Wake up. Boxing in America needs a national organization to regulate the sport similar to the NHL for hockey and the NFL, etc. You need a Secretary of Sport to call together the promoters, managers and boxers and tell them if they want to continue operating they have to form a true governing body for the whole country. Prohibit the participation of all alphabet soup bodies like the WBC, WBA, etc. If any fighter from another country wants to compete in the USA he has to apply to this new National Boxing Council for a permit. It would work if given half a chance.
There is a difference between a national boxing commission and the NHL, NFL, etc. With a national boxing commission, you get the federal government involved. You might solve some problems. But my experience is that you create new problems anytime the federal government get involved in anything.
It would never work, and it will never happen. All promoters have to do is stage the fights in another country. boxing is not an America sport per se, its a world sport.Cap wrote:Clinching was considered a foul at one time.
Whether you like it or not, many things even in your country are still regulated, despite the efforts of special interest groups. Why do you have a state commission? Why have all those bureaucrats at the state capital tell you what to do? In fact, why not let boxing(promoters) poilce itself? Lets get back to 20 round bouts or even fights to the finish, and whats the deal with those nancy-boy boxing gloves?
Wake up. Boxing in America needs a national organization to regulate the sport similar to the NHL for hockey and the NFL, etc. You need a Secretary of Sport to call together the promoters, managers and boxers and tell them if they want to continue operating they have to form a true governing body for the whole country. Prohibit the participation of all alphabet soup bodies like the WBC, WBA, etc. If any fighter from another country wants to compete in the USA he has to apply to this new National Boxing Council for a permit. It would work if given half a chance.
Frank, another problem I see is that you are just substituting one political entity with another when you go to a national commission.
You've dealt with commissions - imagine a boxing commission run like the IRS.
But I hasten to add that I agree with Cap's sentiment. I'm just not sure if a national commission, regulated by the federal government, is the answer.
You've dealt with commissions - imagine a boxing commission run like the IRS.
But I hasten to add that I agree with Cap's sentiment. I'm just not sure if a national commission, regulated by the federal government, is the answer.
Agree!raylawpc wrote:Frank, another problem I see is that you are just substituting one political entity with another when you go to a national commission.
You've dealt with commissions - imagine a boxing commission run like the IRS.
But I hasten to add that I agree with Cap's sentiment. I'm just not sure if a national commission, regulated by the federal government, is the answer.
Mike, read my initial post in this thread. I found the info in an old newspaper article/commentary.delisa wrote:hugging, holding, or prolonged clinching has always been a foul.
Clinching is not a foul, and as far as i know never has been.
As to a National Council or League, if you started in the USA, others would eventually follow. The initial organization of the thing would likely need the "gentle urging" of a Ministry of Sport to get it going. You'd have a governing board of maybe six elected members from the boxing community with a president/chairman selected the same way. There would be loose government oversight just to be sure the Council was following the established rules. It would be a strickly democratic outfit.
Cap, I appreciate what you are writing, but if the federal government gets involved your "democratic outfit" would very quickly become a bureaucracy. When has the federal government ever exercised "loose government oversight"?Cap wrote:Mike, read my initial post in this thread. I found the info in an old newspaper article/commentary.delisa wrote:hugging, holding, or prolonged clinching has always been a foul.
Clinching is not a foul, and as far as i know never has been.
As to a National Council or League, if you started in the USA, others would eventually follow. The initial organization of the thing would likely need the "gentle urging" of a Ministry of Sport to get it going. You'd have a governing board of maybe six elected members from the boxing community with a president/chairman selected the same way. There would be loose government oversight just to be sure the Council was following the established rules. It would be a strickly democratic outfit.