SO LETS GET THIS STRAIGHT?

[Wrists]

Currently 3 of our top 3 boxers are Calzaghe, Hatton and Khan. Looking at various threads these three are:

Calzaghe - overated bum who is avoiding Froch and has beaten no-one
Hatton - just a wrestler who was beaten by a bum in Mayweather
Khan - is chinny and over protected and a treacherous sod for wanting to better himself by changing trainers!!



Jesus - no wonder our country is a laughing stock sports wise with attitudes like this.

Ask yourself when Hatton and Calzaghe go what will we have.

Haye - granted
Khan - potential

After that the cupboard is bare - hows about people on here appreciate people while they are here.

Be honest if your JC and you can earn 6 mill plus by fighting Jones or a mill for Froch what would you do??

To say that a guy who has fought Reid, Brewer, Mitchell, Lacy, Kessler, Eubank, Woodhall and Hopkins is a coward is frankly stupid - then again some people on here are indeed stupid

Regards

Wrists

[Poncey]

You're spot on. The British Public spend far too much time championing the underdog, and when they become successful they slag them off and move onto the next one.

If they aren't successful, they do the same.

It seems something we do with a lot of sports, not just Boxing.

[Wax On]

You're spot on. The British Public spend far too much time championing the underdog, and when they become successful they slag them off and move onto the next one.

If they aren't successful, they do the same.

It seems something we do with a lot of sports, not just Boxing.

Our loser mentality was summed up for me by the contrasting response to two sports people who gave up.

When Paula Radcliffe, stopped and had a cry by the side of the road - the UK press were all giving it 'poor Paula' 'she must have been really suffering' etc etc, but when an Aussie Rower stopped rowing in the last Olympics, she was branded a National Disgrace by their press / general public.

It's says it all about the British attitude to sport and this nonsense taught in schools that it's the taking part that counts, not the winning.

The way it's been reported Amir has disposed of Oliver is way out of order, but you can't blame the guy for seeking to better himself if he believes that's what he needs to do to continue improving.

[Peter Hick]

Joe is a legend!

The manfredo win being the pinnacle of a glittering career!!!

[Wrists]

Hatton's win v Vilches surpasses anything ever

[Autobarn]

Do we need this thread?

We're all giving Haye credit because he's gone and done it properly. Hard EBU fights, beats up the real champ abroad and then defends vs the biggest puncher at the weight besides himself, before stalking Wlad fvcking Klitschko the main heavyweight champ!

The bottom line is we can see through all the hype and all the matchmaking re other fighters who take WBO and WBUu titles. The layman cannot see this but ppl who post on forums can.

Calzaghe will retire an unbeaten 2-weight champ most likely. A very planned career, rigorously planned, but fighter and promoter delivered when necessary and the stats will put Joe in the Hall of Fame not to mention making him a rich, successful sportsman. But many of us have not enjoyed his career. Ultimately, in this era you can be a rich man by merely holding on to a title for ten years and then winning a couple of big fights. Niche markets keep the best apart and they don't fight til one's 43 and the other's 36.

If you're not with Warren you're made to feel as though the whole system - a system that deprives long time fans of real fights - is aganst you.

But the cupboard isn't bare, not at all. There are lots of talented Brits out there. Froch and Moore are surely not far off world title shots. Barker, Murray, Truscott are all talented and all up to something good, solid and respectable. Khan has had it all on a platter meaning lots of easy fights/big money but we're seeing other young guys fight for their right to be contenders - great for the boxing fan. Witter keeps on defending his world title. Haye can possibly win a heavyweight crown. Joe Murray and Frankie Gavin may have successful Olympic campaigns and imagine all the promoters courting them.

[stujones]

Currently 3 of our top 3 boxers are Calzaghe, Hatton and Khan. Looking at various threads these three are:

Calzaghe - overated bum who is avoiding Froch and has beaten no-one
Hatton - just a wrestler who was beaten by a bum in Mayweather
Khan - is chinny and over protected and a treacherous sod for wanting to better himself by changing trainers!!



Jesus - no wonder our country is a laughing stock sports wise with attitudes like this.

Ask yourself when Hatton and Calzaghe go what will we have.

Haye - granted
Khan - potential

After that the cupboard is bare - hows about people on here appreciate people while they are here.

Be honest if your JC and you can earn 6 mill plus by fighting Jones or a mill for Froch what would you do??

To say that a guy who has fought Reid, Brewer, Mitchell, Lacy, Kessler, Eubank, Woodhall and Hopkins is a coward is frankly stupid - then again some people on here are indeed stupid

Regards

Wrists

Well, as you know Wrists - I am possibly Joe's harshest critic on here. I'd like to think of it as constructive criticism, or criticism with a bit of reasoning - but I do agree with you on this post... I do think maybe its a bit OTT, but essentially I agree.

I've not championed the Froch vs Calzaghe fight at all... now Froch vs Bute winner vs Calzaghe - thats a different matter, Froch has got to prove himself also... but there is no way I would say - don't fight Jones and fight that guy instead. Earn the money, he deserves it.

Having said that - if Joe is more interested in his all time great status, then I think a Bute vs Froch winner would be a better option. Potentially, Mikkel Kessler is his greatest "legacy" win - if Kessler dominates the Super Middle/Light Heavy scene for the next five/six years then my word - Joe standing will increase (just as Roy's has increased cause of the success of Hopkins/Toney). However, it won't look good if the Froch vs Bute winner beats Kessler and for me the winner of a Froch vs Bute fight will be on the same level, if not slightly above, as Kessler in November.

Note - Bute vs Froch isn't on or anything, just saying if it did transpire... that would be the only time I would say - come on Joe, fight Froch... if he did beat Bute.

What I am trying to say is I cannot see any financial gain or legacy gain with Calzaghe fighting Froch currently.

No I don't think Joe is a coward - I think though he could have done himself more favours by beating, equally beatable names, then those mentioned... names that would have (I am sure) come to the UK. All he needed to do was fight the guys who had beaten them. The likes of Malinga (or Mads Larsen - who just beat Malinga), Beyer (beat Woodhall), Echols - a big miss that one (just beat Brewer). That would have been a whole lot better than Reid, Woodhall, and Mitchell - for a start.

[Wrists]

Stu - sound reasoning me thinks!

This was not meant to be a Calzaghe thread but here goes - my 2 pence worth!

I am a huge JC fan (you have probably worked that one out). Maybe a little biaised - my main reason for being a fan not only because I think he's a great fighter but I was in the crowd at Calzaghe Reid where after the verdict a few people hung around to spit at FW and basically call Joe a sheep shagger etc etc. Admist all the crap Joe still smiled and even touched gloves (well my clenched fist) with yours truly when I said 'Well done'

Dear me I sound like a groupie

I admit he has fought bad fighters - Pudwill, Ashira etc etc I just think some of the criticism is unfair and some people on here expect our elite fighters to take elite fights time after time after time.

People forget its hard being punched in the face and if fighters want to make as much money then great (a fact that Calzaghe has never denied)

Regards

Wrists

[Wrists]

Autobarn - so what if FW has cornered the market. Surely its up to the likes of Hennessey etc etc to break the mould.

Just like a certain young promoter did all those years ago when Duff etc etc were the big players.

If these other guys can't make the bigger fights they should look at themselves instead of slagging FW who in all honesty does what a promoter should do and gets the best deal at the best time for his fighters.

Thats why FW fighters are around longer and make so much more money.

I think as fight fans we should sometimes not over estimate our importance - yes we are the paying public but we are not taking the blows - guys like Hatton are therefore should be allowed to make big money without being called cowards

Wrists

[stujones]

Stu - sound reasoning me thinks!

This was not meant to be a Calzaghe thread but here goes - my 2 pence worth!

I am a huge JC fan (you have probably worked that one out). Maybe a little biaised - my main reason for being a fan not only because I think he's a great fighter but I was in the crowd at Calzaghe Reid where after the verdict a few people hung around to spit at FW and basically call Joe a sheep shagger etc etc. Admist all the crap Joe still smiled and even touched gloves (well my clenched fist) with yours truly when I said 'Well done'

Dear me I sound like a groupie

I admit he has fought bad fighters - Pudwill, Ashira etc etc I just think some of the criticism is unfair and some people on here expect our elite fighters to take elite fights time after time after time.

People forget its hard being punched in the face and if fighters want to make as much money then great (a fact that Calzaghe has never denied)

Regards

Wrists

Thats why I give Hatton all the credit and respect in the world, maybe more so than Joe. Even though he isn't as tallented - you cannot fault Tszyu, Castillo and Mayweather in the space of 2 and a half years.

Thats my kind of fighter... thats why I am such a DLH fan.

I can see your point completely, and as I have said, if I had a son then I would try and guide him in the exact same path as Joe's. However, as a fight FAN, I do get a little annoyed when people heap TOO much praise on Joe (e.g. I've heard him called the greatest fighter in boxing history bar none) when its not just a FEW of his opponents were poor, its over half his defences - and even his best ones could have been better (Kessler, Lacy and Hopkins aside).

You might have read I am in a debate with this guy, who actually does seems to know a bit about boxers, but clearly has something against the ENGLISH (it is on a Welsh rugby site) and has said Hatton has no basic skills and that Jones Jnr was slightly better than Lacy (prime for prime) - yeah, he'll become a whole lot better if they he does sign to fight Jones... He says (like you have) I am anti Joe and pro England etc... but then, who did I respect more a guy who has fought 3 hall of fame bound fighters in 2 1/2 years... or a guy who its taken 15 years and waited for the guy to be 2-2 in his last 4 fights and reach the age of 43.... Its got to be Ricky, even though Joe is more talented.

[Poncey]

[quote="stujones]Jones Jnr was slightly better than Lacy (prime for prime)[/quote]



Tell him to stick to rugby.

[overhand_right]

This thread is bizarre & the writer doesnt have a clue.

No one has called Mayweather a bum. No one says Calzaghe has beaten 'no one'.

Hatton is avoiding Witter & Calzaghes CV looks pretty thin if you remove Kessler. Think thats a safe 'general consensus', removing the obligatory loons who we dont count.

Most of us like David Haye-- he fights anyone & bludgeons them.

Amir dodges British and European champs and is manouvered into a crappy title shot. Thats why David Haye is way more popular round here than Amir. Or any of ther WBO/BU shower of shite.

[Autobarn]

I think the big issue is that what is good for the boxer isn't good for the fan (easy fights, fake titles, all for very good money). And that what is good for the fan (competitive, honest fights) isn't good for the boxer.

Ppl can say Hatton and Calzaghe are raking the money in and that their promoters are doing a lot to look after the fighter. But then these are merely events where the fan goes to see X or Y fighter in the flesh rather than actually watching a fight. And this kind of activity is giving the UFC a massive hole in the market. A rival combat sport can actually come along and say, "Hey, watch us instead, as we make competitive fights."

What do the young generation of fans do? Do they get hot and bothered about seeing Ricky and Joe mug the latest opponent or do they just watch something they feel will deliver on some real action?

There needs to be a middle ground in which the fans and the fighters' needs are catered for. I suggest booting out the WBO, the WBU and the IBO as the first solution, because it gives the promoter less artistic licence to sell lies and bullshit. A more strigent BBBofC is also necessary, to do more good work ala not letting Ezra Sellers challenge Enzo Macca. We need to get back to that stage where you had to have the good fight to get the fans interested and to get the payday. And we need promoters playing ball and not pulling their fighters out of purse bids so that the top fighters in the country can face each other.

[mrbassie]

It's not knocking people for being successful, guy's like Hatton, Khan and Calzaghe get criticism for moving up in what s perceived as the 'wrong' way. What stands out on their records isn't the best guy's they beat it's the best guys who aren't on there. Why are these guys criticised and a guy like Haye isn't? is it because they're further in their careers and thereby more successful or is it because Haye's taken risks in his career and gone up the 'right' way and they didn't.
I don't particularly like either of them, used to like Hatton but not any more. They're over managed, and people on forums playing fantasy manager and only wanting the fights that are financially best for their favourites baffles me.
Hatton should have fought Witter years ago and he should have fought Mayweather and Cotto when they were at light welter; there's nothing to stop him fighting Lazcano, Malinaggi, Torres, Ngoudjo, Witter and N'dou in the next twelve months or less. But he'll fight two of them and then one or two fights in the next twelve months none of which will be Witter, because glory doesn't count, only the business plan.
Calzaghe should have fought a risk opponent years ago too, there's something seriously deserving of criticism going on when a guy makes the record for title defences and his best opponent is the guy he won the belt from in the first place.

This is what's killing boxing more than anything else, more than too many titles, too many divisions etc. Boxers taking the easy route to protect a record.

[mrbassie]

Thats why I give Hatton all the credit and respect in the world, maybe more so than Joe. Even though he isn't as tallented - you cannot fault Tszyu, Castillo and Mayweather in the space of 2 and a half years.

You can fault Castillo, he was/is shot, it was apparent in the Ngoudjo fight, which I personally think Castillo lost, so it's not as if the Hatton's didn't know this. Also, he's a lightweight and there are far too many of these on Hatton's record and he's about to fight another one.

[stujones]

Thats why I give Hatton all the credit and respect in the world, maybe more so than Joe. Even though he isn't as tallented - you cannot fault Tszyu, Castillo and Mayweather in the space of 2 and a half years.

You can fault Castillo, he was/is shot, it was apparent in the Ngoudjo fight, which I personally think Castillo lost, so it's not as if the Hatton's didn't know this. Also, he's a lightweight and there are far too many of these on Hatton's record and he's about to fight another one.

Castillo vs Hatton was primarily signed before the Ngoudjo fight. Plus, its not like Ngoudjo was a bum - he should be IBF champion.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Thats why I give Hatton all the credit and respect in the world, maybe more so than Joe. Even though he isn't as tallented - you cannot fault Tszyu, Castillo and Mayweather in the space of 2 and a half years.

You can fault Castillo, he was/is shot, it was apparent in the Ngoudjo fight, which I personally think Castillo lost, so it's not as if the Hatton's didn't know this. Also, he's a lightweight and there are far too many of these on Hatton's record and he's about to fight another one.

Castillo vs Hatton was primarily signed before the Ngoudjo fight. Plus, its not like Ngoudjo was a bum - he should be IBF champion.

Castillo was 33, a year or so out the ring before he looked bad against Ngoudjo, and was never the same after the first Corrales fight. Both those fighters were ruined from that first fight. Castillo also looked below form in his subsequent fights after Corrales. The fact Castillo didnt make 135 shows a lack of dedication and a desire to cheat

Ngoudjo should have wins over Castillo and Malignaggi. Hatton did a number on Castillo but that was an old man (in ring years) he fought

[mrbassie]

Ngoudjo's a good fighter, no arguments, Castillo was shot though and you could tell and he's a lightweight. Ngoudjo beat him, so would Witter, N'dou and Malinaggi. It's a fight that was made because of the name, people who don't follow boxing but watch big ppv's know who he is because he ran Mayweather close, so it's a fight that was made to generate interest in Hatton fighting Mayweather. This I don't like because it's conning the public and cheating the contenders who deserve a shot at the linear champ. I wouldn't have any criticism to make if Hatton was fighting more than once every six months, if he fought a couple of the best guys in the division and fought Castillo last year but he didn't. I don't know about you, but I never thought Castillo had a chance, I didn't think he'd stand a chance of beating Hatton when he knocked out Corralles either.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this isn't british mentality talking, I fault yanks like Mayweather for the same thing, chasing money not glory. Light welter was a fantastic division a couple of years ago and none of the best fights happened, not one.

[banjo]

Haye - Charismatic, confident, exciting to watch, current world champ and a potential world heavyweight champ.

Calzaghe - Down to earth, great role model, talented, could have achieved what he is doing years ago although slightly overrated.

Hatton - Started out as a talented, genuine likeable kid however he now contradicts himself, he's arrogant, thinks he's among the best P4P, tries to sell fighters like Lazcano and Urango as credible PPV opposition, oh yeah and he patronises everyone with his "I'm just a jack the lad from a council estate and I drink Guiness and play darts in the pub" when he's a multi millionaire - Very humble indeed. I say if you've got it then flaunt it Floyd style.

Khan - Genuine world class potential but needs a lot of improvement offensively and defensively and hopefully changing trainers may give him an extra dimension - that said Olivers done a great job with Amir but maybe this is as far as he can take him.

[stujones]

Ngoudjo's a good fighter, no arguments, Castillo was shot though and you could tell and he's a lightweight. Ngoudjo beat him, so would Witter, N'dou and Malinaggi. It's a fight that was made because of the name, people who don't follow boxing but watch big ppv's know who he is because he ran Mayweather close, so it's a fight that was made to generate interest in Hatton fighting Mayweather. This I don't like because it's conning the public and cheating the contenders who deserve a shot at the linear champ. I wouldn't have any criticism to make if Hatton was fighting more than once every six months, if he fought a couple of the best guys in the division and fought Castillo last year but he didn't. I don't know about you, but I never thought Castillo had a chance, I didn't think he'd stand a chance of beating Hatton when he knocked out Corralles either.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this isn't british mentality talking, I fault yanks like Mayweather for the same thing, chasing money not glory. Light welter was a fantastic division a couple of years ago and none of the best fights happened, not one.

Surely Gatti vs Mayweather was a good one on paper. Gatti was the WBC champion going through a good vein of form.

Hatton vs Tszyu?

And we did get Hatton vs Mayweather not at Light Welter admittedly.

I didn't like Mayweather's light welterweight reign - I thought he could have stuck around longer - but I like the fact he beat "the man" at Welter... and one of the biggest percieved threats in terms of skills (Judah) at 147.. .so far. Yes, Cotto is the icing - but lets not write that fight off yet.

[observer1]

Nobody hates Joe Cal, im from Britain too, ok im not Joe Cal's no.1 Fan, but i still will have a slight urge to see him Win.

But i think everyone will agree with mt when i say Joe Cal has a FAR MORE Potential and could have achieved a lot more than he has done, ALOT more.

Lets face it, the big thing would have been to go LH straight away and challenge RJJ, Hopkins and Co. at around 2001 or something.

Those would have been Mega Fights...

Instead he wasted all his time at SMW fighting good, but not Special Fighters.
Which is a Shame.

Hey, if he wants money, sure, its his choice, nobody can stop him from that, its his life, and he is in the Ring.

But i think its fair to say he does not have a Claim to a Special Legacy like allegedly and Co. says he does.

He could have been bigger than Lennox Lewis, but wasted it.

[overhand_right]

Each time the ITV shills bang on about JCs WBO 'reign of sh't' being equal to Joe Louis's decade heavyweight reign, a little piece of me inside dies.

[observer1]

Each time the ITV shills bang on about JCs WBO 'reign of sh't' being equal to Joe Louis's decade heavyweight reign, a little piece of me inside dies.

Never thought i'd say it, but im in the same boat as Overhand on this one

[stujones]

Nobody hates Joe Cal, im from Britain too, ok im not Joe Cal's no.1 Fan, but i still will have a slight urge to see him Win.

But i think everyone will agree with mt when i say Joe Cal has a FAR MORE Potential and could have achieved a lot more than he has done, ALOT more.

Lets face it, the big thing would have been to go LH straight away and challenge RJJ, Hopkins and Co. at around 2001 or something.

Those would have been Mega Fights...

Instead he wasted all his time at SMW fighting good, but not Special Fighters.
Which is a Shame.

Hey, if he wants money, sure, its his choice, nobody can stop him from that, its his life, and he is in the Ring.

But i think its fair to say he does not have a Claim to a Special Legacy like allegedly allegedly and Co. says he does.

He could have been bigger than Lennox Lewis, but wasted it.

He could have... but on the flip side... he might not have been able to.

He certainly could have been somewhat better - by beating the likes of Echols instead of Brewer (or better still Pudwill etc)... but could he have achieved MUCH futher... he would have needed to have beaten the likes Jones Jnr, Hopkins, Toney etc to have gone to the next level - to a level beyond where he is now.... and sorry, for all his talent, I think Joe would have come unstuck... and IMO in a pretty emphatic way.

[WildWaylon]

Joe is a legend!

The manfredo win being the pinnacle of a glittering career!!!

OK take the piss!!!!