Muhammad Ali vs Jimmy Ellis

[Robinson]

For those interested this bout is up on YouTube atm.

Its nothing super exciting but interesting all the same.

What I am interested in is knowing the back story.

Why Dundee chose to corner Ellis....who was he really backing...
Why would the same camp match its own fighters at such a high level
Was the fight really neccesary to happen..surely they could have found other opponents...
Or any other info on this fight..

Thanks guys

Kym

[raylawpc]

For those interested this bout is up on YouTube atm.

Its nothing super exciting but interesting all the same.

What I am interested in is knowing the back story.

Why Dundee chose to corner Ellis....who was he really backing...
Why would the same camp match its own fighters at such a high level
Was the fight really neccesary to happen..surely they could have found other opponents...
Or any other info on this fight..

Thanks guys

Kym

If memory serves, Dundee trained and managed Ellis. At this point, he was only Ali's trainer. Herbert Muhammad was Ali's manager at this point, I think.

[granberry]

For several years before this Ellis was considered legally blind in a number of states, which refused him a boxing license for that reason.

Once he got in this condition he had spent years around Ali's training camp as a 'sparring partner'.

This fight was garbage as Ellis was a wreck and had been for some time.

Herbert Muhammed was always Ali's manger once the muslims took him over.

Dundee was a cornerman and nothing more with Ali once the muslims took him over.

[raylawpc]

For several years before this Ellis was considered legally blind in a number of states, which refused him a boxing license for that reason.

Once he got in this condition he had spent years around Ali's training camp as a 'sparring partner'.

This fight was garbage as Ellis was a wreck and had been for some time.

Herbert Muhammed was always Ali's manger once the muslims took him over.

Dundee was a cornerman and nothing more with Ali once the muslims took him over.

That's interesting. What states had refused Ellis a license in 1971? Are you suggesting Ellis was legally blind when he won the WBA title in 1968?

[Ambling Alp]

Dundee trained several fighters at once and couldn't be around for the day to day training of all of them. With Ali, he would be there for the last few weeks leading up to a fight. Of course the Ellis fight was an exception.

Ellis was a fighter who struggled early in his career but did very well with Dundee as his trainer.
Dundee should be given credit for being in Ellis' corner for this fight. Obviously he was the underdog and probably wasn't going to win.

Still, Ellis was still a pretty good fighter at the time of the fight. At this point, he had only lost one fight since moving up to heavyweight and that was to Frazier. This was the only loss that Ellis had in the previous 7 years. Ellis was coming off of a victory over George Chuvalo.

It may seem strange that two guys with the same trainer fought each other but that is a good thing. The top fighters should fight each other. If Ali wouldn't have fought Ellis, we would probably be hearing how he ducked him and how Ellis' style would have caused him problems.

[granberry]

Dundee never trained any fighter.

He was a cornerman.

He was well known to be clueless when it came the techniques of boxing.
He was known in Philadelphia as "The guy who used to sweep out his brother's gym."

When Dundee was latched onto by the clueless media clowns and suddenly quoted all over the media as the "authority" on boxing (even though all he ever did was sell the fighters he was connected with) there was great astonishment, combined with hilarity, among boxing people I knew.

Dundee had his chance to show what he "knew" about boxing when Jimmy Young (and his 'nobody' trainer Bob Brown) made a fool out of Ali.
Bob Brown never had an 'interview' from a newsman in his life, but he sure knew the subject of boxing as compared to media 'authority' Angelo Dundee.

After that fight Dundee actually abandoned his own fighter, saying of Ali, "He never looked so bad."

Notice Dundee was divorcing himself from his own fighter. When Ali won Dundee was the first to put himself forward to take the credit.

When they started showing the corner on TV in between rounds Dundee gave demonstration after demonstration that he had no clue what goes on from the technical side of boxing.

I remember when Dundee gave Quick Tillis instructions in the corner to get himself knocked out against Mike Weaver. If Tillis would have kept on doing what he had been doing so far in the fight, he would have lost a decision at worst.
I remember Dundee falling apart when he was in the corner with Tony Chiaveroni (sp) against Benitez.

In reality Dundee was the TIP OF THE ICEBERG for the mob (through his brother's connections).

Dundee was there for the fake Liston-Ali "fights," for the Armando Muniz-Ray Leonard arrangement, in Pastrano's corner for the arranged lifting of Harold Johnson's title (notice Johnson never got a return fight, while Pastrano 'defended' his 'title' against Terry Downes, who wasn't even a good middleweight).

Some of the posters here swallow the media pablum like they think it was filet mignon, instead of the crap that it actually is.

[raylawpc]

How many corners have you worked, Granberry?

And I'll ask again, since maybe you missed it: What states had refused Ellis a license in 1971? Are you suggesting Ellis was legally blind when he won the WBA title in 1968?

[granberry]

How many corners have you worked, Granberry?

And I'll ask again, since maybe you missed it: What states had refused Ellis a license in 1971? Are you suggesting Ellis was legally blind when he won the WBA title in 1968?

How much media crap have you swallowed, ray?

HOW MANY top level, championship fighters would give you two seconds of their time, ray?

Maybe you could give them your garbling of Tunney's quote about Fitzsimmons, where you confuse a knockout punch with a left jab.
I'm sure they would be thrilled.
LOL

Ali fought his own sparring partner.

Whoopdedoo.

What a thrilling event.

Assignment for you ray:

Learn the difference betwee a 'trainer' and a 'cornerman.'

Angelo Dundee was a cornerman.

Angelo Dundee never trained any fighter.

He couldn't because he knew nothing about the techniques of boxing.

[raylawpc]

Sean O'Grady did . . . so did Ken Norton. Ron Lyle gave me ten rounds worth of his time. Carlos Ortiz did, too.

How's that for starters?

Now, how about the names of those commissions that banned Jimmy Eliis when he was legally blind . . .

And when did I suggest that Ali-Ellis was a thrilling event?

[granberry]

Sean O'Grady did . . . so did Ken Norton. Ron Lyle gave me ten rounds worth of his time. Carlos Ortiz did, too.

How's that for starters?

Now, how about the names of those commissions that banned Jimmy Eliis when he was legally blind . . .

And when did I suggest that Ali-Ellis was a thrilling event?

Jack Dempsey gave me over an hour of his time.
So did Joe Louis.

We were talking about specific techniques of boxing.

About specifics to do with their own fights.

Louis was so interested when I told him about my long discussion with Dempsey about such specifics that he actually started grilling me, with great interest, about what Dempsey said.

I am sure Sean O'Grady was a nice kid and I know that Ken Norton was actually intelligent (not about boxing) but I would have no interest in talking about boxing techniques with fighters on their level.

I'll stick with what I learned from Dempsey, Louis, Harold Johnson, Georgie Benton, Wesley Mouzon, Holly Mims, Lee Halfpenny, Bob Brown, etc etc.

[raylawpc]

Now, Granberry, how fair is it to amend your post after I've replied to you? Tsk . . . tsk . . . tsk . . .

Your take on the career of Angelo Dundee is very interesting. However, my question wasn't about Angelo Dundee, it was about you: How many corners have you worked?

[granberry]

Now, Granberry, how fair is it to amend your post after I've replied to you? Tsk . . . tsk . . . tsk . . .

Your take on the career of Angelo Dundee is very interesting. However, my question wasn't about Angelo Dundee, it was about you: How many corners have you worked?

read the above post, ray.

If you dare.

LOL

[raylawpc]

I did. How many corners have you worked?

[granberry]

I did. How many corners have you worked?

A better question, ray:

HOW MANY professional fights have you had?

[raylawpc]

Not a single one. And you? And while you're answering that one, how about telling us about your corner work. (BTW, passing out orange juice doesn't count.)

[SteveO]

Granberry still hasn't told us in which States Ellis was considered legally blind!

[kikibalt]

Never laughed so hard in my life..

[Smokin'Moe]

alright whatever ali sucks and dundee was a greedy jew watever... i dont care. im not a fan of either

lets get past that. im really curious as to jimmy ellis' blindness

[Collins2000]

Never laughed so hard in my life..

Frank, how about that mental picture of Florence 'granberry' Nightingale handing out cartons of orange juice?



The answer for Ray is that granberry-terap has NEVER worked a corner in his life. He has dreamt about it a lot but that don't count.

[granberry]

alright whatever ali sucks and dundee was a greedy jew watever... i dont care. im not a fan of either

lets get past that. im really curious as to jimmy ellis' blindness

Angelo Dundee was Italian.(ancestry)

Ellis wasn't blind. But he had bad eyes.

[BoxBuzz]

Granberry still hasn't told us in which States Ellis was considered legally blind!

And he never will................... because he dreamt it up.

How some of the dimwits in here can believe the crap he comes out with is hilarious.

Boxbuzz actually thinks granberry-terap is some famous boxing personality visiting us incognito. Poor Buzz.

Florence 'terap' Nightingale, the orange juice lady.

Poor Collins....see how he foolishly under rates the hydration quality of orange juice? Collins and his lack of understanding of this vital elixir is destroying boxrec.

[kikibalt]

Granberry still hasn't told us in which States Ellis was considered legally blind!

And he never will................... because he dreamt it up.

How some of the dimwits in here can believe the crap he comes out with is hilarious.

Boxbuzz actually thinks granberry-terap is some famous boxing personality visiting us incognito. Poor Buzz.

Florence 'terap' Nightingale, the orange juice lady.

Poor Collins....see how he foolishly under rates the hydration quality of orange juice? Collins and his lack of understanding of this vital elixir is destroying boxrec.

You don't go around giving orange juice and anything else for that matter to other people's fighters, I think thats the point that needs to be made here.

[bjermaine]

Sean O'Grady did . . . so did Ken Norton. Ron Lyle gave me ten rounds worth of his time. Carlos Ortiz did, too.

How's that for starters?

Now, how about the names of those commissions that banned Jimmy Eliis when he was legally blind . . .

And when did I suggest that Ali-Ellis was a thrilling event?

Jack Dempsey gave me over an hour of his time.
So did Joe Louis.

We were talking about specific techniques of boxing.

About specifics to do with their own fights.

Louis was so interested when I told him about my long discussion with Dempsey about such specifics that he actually started grilling me, with great interest, about what Dempsey said.

I am sure Sean O'Grady was a nice kid and I know that Ken Norton was actually intelligent (not about boxing) but I would have no interest in talking about boxing techniques with fighters on their level.

I'll stick with what I learned from Dempsey, Louis, Harold Johnson, Georgie Benton, Wesley Mouzon, Holly Mims, Lee Halfpenny, Bob Brown, etc etc.

i'm sure the pleasure was all theirs. he probably just visited their graves and talked to them. btw, what kind of retard takes orange juice to the fights and bestows them to the fighters he feels that are worthy? what a pompous ass.

[kikibalt]

When ray and Frank show up, collins is not far behind.

Because ray and Frank have such low mentalities that they need collins, the poisononous feminine snake of boxrec, to tell them where to post.

Then collins and his alias irene show up.

collins has never made a post on the subject of boxing--and he never will.

When collins jerks on the ring through their noses, ray and Frank come running.

I only came to this thread to laugh at the resident clown who is always good for a laughed.

One thing about some of us, including Collins is that we don't claim to be something we are not, its easy to drop names and claim you're some kind of boxing expert when all you post here is what you read in the Ring magazine, tell us who you are, if you're some big boxing man, then I must know you, as I just about know all the top boxing men, reading your stuff I think that you're no more then a kid trying to B-S your way through here, but I have to give you your due's, as you have pull the wool over some of the guys here, but not me, as I have been around to long to be B-S by a phony.

[raylawpc]

alright whatever ali sucks and dundee was a greedy jew watever... i dont care. im not a fan of either

lets get past that. im really curious as to jimmy ellis' blindness

Angelo Dundee was Italian.(ancestry)

Ellis wasn't blind. But he had bad eyes.

Yeah, but you wrote he was legally blind. You said he was declared "legally blind in a number of states, which refused him a boxing license for that reason." Which states and when? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'll also repeat my original question: How many corners have you worked? (Remember, passing out orange juice doesn't count. I was the milk monitor in kindergarden, but that didn't make me a dairy farmer.)

And, since you asked me (and I answered you), I'll ask you: How many professional fights have you had?