Including small heavyweights who are the all time cruisers?

actjac · Post by **actjac** » 04 May 2008, 17:34

Example: Patterson, Dempsey etc.

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 04 May 2008, 20:07

For me my FAVOURITES that fought well under 200lbs

Ten in no order

Floyd Patterson
Ezzard Charles
Rocky Marciano
Evander Holyfield
Jack Dempsey
Doug Jones
Jersey Joe Walcott
Archie Moore
Harold Johnson
Jack Johnson

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 May 2008, 05:49

Good call. Quarry definetly into the mix, even if to make it fun.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 05 May 2008, 06:00

Joe Louis had Heavyweight title fights at around 200lbs
- Braddock, Farr, Schmeling (according to this site)
His heaviest weight (I think) was against Marciano, 213lbs at age 37

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 May 2008, 06:07

Good point though for some reason I think of him around 205-210. But he would be damned effective at '200'lb

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 05 May 2008, 06:22

Robinson wrote:Good point though for some reason I think of him around 205-210. But he would be damned effective at '200'lb

Obviously a Heavy doesnt have to make weight, but you could make the argument that he could have very easily made 200 for a weigh in

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 May 2008, 06:30

Agreed as could Joe Frazier too.

would be interesting to see Byrd and Michael Spinks in the mix also

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 05 May 2008, 06:32

Would have been interesting to see James Toney stick around cruiser for longer as well

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 May 2008, 06:34

True....I would have liked to have seen him fight at HW around the weight he fought Holyfield at...he seemed good around the 220 mark.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 05 May 2008, 07:06

I think the main thing to remember about the older heavies is that they were not making weight, as a cruiser would have to. With an historic 200lbs limit one might see a lot more fighters able to make that limit (assuming they would want to)

actjac · Post by **actjac** » 05 May 2008, 09:55

What an all time list this would have made had there always been a cruiser division. Probably the best ATG list.

Marciano
Dempsey
Langford
Quarry
Ellis
Tunney
Patterson
Spinks
Qawi
Foster
Jirov
Charles
Machen
Moore
Frazier
Holyfield
Byrd
Johansson
Toney
Moorer

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 05 May 2008, 09:58

actjac wrote:What an all time list this would have made had there been a cruiser division. Probably the best ATG list.

Marciano
Dempsey
Langford
Quarry
Tunney
Patterson
Spinks
Foster
Charles
Frazier
Holyfield
Byrd
Toney
Moorer

The reality is they all would've made the move to Heavyweight, anyway. For most of those fighters, that wasn't a big leap in weight, but it was a big leap in earnings. I doubt any would have stayed, especially considering their obvious successes at Heavyweight. Just as a hypothetical, though, I see where you're coming from.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 05 May 2008, 16:33

actjac wrote:What an all time list this would have made had there been a cruiser division. Probably the best ATG list.

Marciano
Dempsey
Langford
Quarry
Tunney
Patterson
Spinks
Foster
Charles
Machen
Mooere
Frazier
Holyfield
Byrd
Toney
Moorer

Thats a pretty good list. i would add Corbett, Fitzsimmons,Schmeling, and Johansson. They were atleast as good as some of the guys mentioned.
I would also add Harold Johnson. He actually did better against good heavyweights than Moore.
Tommy Loughran would be another possibility.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 05 May 2008, 18:06

Lets throw Sailor Tom Sharkey in the mix here.
I like that guy . Tough as nails .
I think he only weighed about a buck 85 usualy

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 May 2008, 19:21

I would love to have seen a fight between Tom Sharkey and George Chuvalo... that would be a rough nasty war.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 06 May 2008, 09:28

Ambling Alp wrote:
actjac wrote:What an all time list this would have made had there been a cruiser division. Probably the best ATG list.

Marciano
Dempsey
Langford
Quarry
Tunney
Patterson
Spinks
Foster
Charles
Machen
Mooere
Frazier
Holyfield
Byrd
Toney
Moorer
Thats a pretty good list. i would add Corbett, Fitzsimmons,Schmeling, and Johansson. They were atleast as good as some of the guys mentioned.
I would also add Harold Johnson. He actually did better against good heavyweights than Moore.
Tommy Loughran would be another possibility.

Tommy Loughran? It's right; then, too the great Jose Carattoli

actjac · Post by **actjac** » 06 May 2008, 10:36

Okay, an argument is made for Joe Louis who fought at 200lbs most of his career. Good call. The top ten of this list would include many in the all time heavyweight top ten thus giving credibility to the strength of this division.
The list could go on and on. We could stop at twenty or twenty five though.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 06 May 2008, 11:00

actjac wrote:Okay, an argument is made for Joe Louis who fought at 200lbs most of his career. Good call. The top ten of this list would include many in the all time heavyweight top ten thus giving credibility to the strength of this division.
The list could go on and on. We could stop at twenty or twenty five though.

As I said, how many of the 210 to 230 lb heavies could have made 200lbs by cutting weight.... As far as I can see, Tyson never fought above 235, and that towards the end.... could he have made 200lbs?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 06 May 2008, 13:12

..a list of great fighters here. i'd add billy con....he'd still be giving up alot of weight, but he'd give a lot of these guys hell. joe louis came in under 200 for their fight......but louis was too fine at that weight....but still, billy put up a great fight against him. i see someone listed johannsen, whom billy would make a fool of....and he'd beat many of the others.

actjac · Post by **actjac** » 06 May 2008, 13:31

Consideration must be given to those that fought their careers at that weight, fought significant fights at that weight or moved up from that weight. I don't think Conn qualifies nor does Tyson.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 06 May 2008, 21:50

..a lot of fighters fought in a higher weight class without putting pounds on themselves, so i think that would have been the case with conn...just stay around 175 and still beat the bigger guys. it's been claimed for years thet he weighed only 167 in the louis fight. i know ezzard weighed about 170 when he battered the bigger joe baksi iin what was one of his very best heavyweight fights.

i don't think harold johnson went up in weight when he fought heavyweights. he outpointed the much bigger nono valdez when was still a lightheavy ....cranberry may know his weight for this one...so they have already proved themselves as capable cruiiserweights.

it would be interesting to rate all of the heavies of the past under 200 lbs as cruiserweights and look at their real records and see how we'd asses them.

actjac · Post by **actjac** » 07 May 2008, 00:00

Try this tournament with these seeds
1. Marciano vs 16. Quarry
2. Louis vs 15. Foster
3. Frazier vs 14. Moore
4. Tunney vs 13 Jirov
5. Dempsey vs 12. Spinks
6. Holyfield vs 11. Patterson
7. Moorer vs 10. Byrd
8. Charles vs 9. Toney

theone · Post by **theone** » 07 May 2008, 07:21

1. Marciano vs 16. Quarry- Quarry gives Marciano the fight of his life, and it wouldn't shock me at all if he is able to pull out a hard fought UD over the Rock. However, my gut says Marciano would catch up to him late and take him out around the 13th or 14th round. Marciano late TKO.

2. Louis vs 15. Foster- Louis by destruction before round three.

3. Frazier vs 14. Moore- Jesus, Moore would look like he got run over by a truck after this one. Frazier by fairly easy mid rounds TKO.

4. Tunney vs 13 Jirov- Tunney could probably outbox Jirov and do his taxes at the same time. Tunney easy dec. 15.

5. Dempsey vs 12. Spinks- I dont care how much people overrate him, in Dempsey was no Tyson. Spinks controls the match with his movement, jab, and earns Dempsey's respect with his "Spinks Jinx". Spinks, easier than expected UD 15.

6. Holyfield vs 11. Patterson- Great match up! If Patterson can keep Holyfield from landing counters with movement and fast combinations, I believe he can take this one. In fact, I think thats exactly what would happen. Patterson UD 15.

7. Moorer vs 10. Byrd- Uhhhh....Byrd I guess. UD....yawn...15.

8. Charles vs 9. Toney- Charles was just to complete a fighter for Toney...most of the time at least. Toney was too good not to make it interesting but Charles has all the right tools to beat him. Charles UD 15.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 07 May 2008, 09:33

I agree with most of Theones predictions on what would have happend had those fights occurred.

However, I don't think the seedings were very acccurate.
There is no way that James Toney, Chris Byrd and Michael Moorer should be ahead of Patterson and spinks. Quarry probably should be much higher. Of course Marciano shouldn't be ahead of Louis.

Were these seeds done in this order to make compelling matchups or because that actually how they should ranked?

actjac · Post by **actjac** » 07 May 2008, 10:03

Ambling Alp wrote:I agree with most of Theones predictions on what would have happend had those fights occurred.

However, I don't think the seedings were very acccurate.
There is no way that James Toney, Chris Byrd and Michael Moorer should be ahead of Patterson and spinks. Quarry probably should be much higher. Of course Marciano shouldn't be ahead of Louis.

Were these seeds done in this order to make compelling matchups or because that actually how they should ranked?

Seeds were adjusted somewhat to allow matches that were outside of their eras (except Moorer-Byrd). Marciano was ahead of Louis simply because of the win. Spinks is not ranked very high and below Moorer, Byrd and Toney because those actually campaigned and won significant fights and titles at this weight and higher.