I'm sure that we have all had conversations with friends, work mates etc about should Boxing be banned. One of the arguments I assume we have all used in defence of the Sweet Science is that there are many more dangerous sports than Boxing.
The common reponse to this by the anti-Boxing mob is Boxing is different to most sports because with Boxing the intent is to hurt your opponent.
Now this got me thinking, I know this thread question somewhat depends on your definition of hurt, but do you think Boxers go into every fight really wanting to hurt their opponent. Is this there primary intent? Do Boxers ever go into the ring WANTING to inflict as much possible physical damage and pain over their opponent? Or does this only happen in the occasional grudge match?
Or is it that 99% of the time fighters go into a ring just to win and any pain or damage they inflict is a secondary issue or accident?
I would be interested in any views, stories or experiences you guys may have on the morally complex matter.
Do Boxers ever REALLY want to hurt each other?
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jamesmcdonnell
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Duran wanted to hurt all those who had written him off more than he did Davey Moore. There was no genuine animosity between Moore and Duran.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Get a copy of Roberto Duran v Davey Moore and I think you have the answer to that question....
PS: Roberto had to keep punching Moore in the sickening eighth round because the inept referee refused to step in. Jose Torres was screaming at the referee to stop it from ringside.
One fight where there was genuine bad feeling between fighters was Emile Griffith-Benny Paret II.
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Eric the Viking
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Sure, sometimes they do, but in American football, players sometimes want to hurt a guy, too - but somehow watching a guy try to take another player's head off while tackling him or watching some guy's knee get blown out in (literally, if he tears his ACL 
) excruciating slo-mo isn't considered excessively violent, whereas boxing is. It's of course complete bullshit - but in contrast to boxing the NFL has an organized league and literally billions of dollars of TV contracts. That means there's at least some semblance of accountability, and (more importantly) a whole lot of money at stake. So the league keeps things from getting too unwholesome, and the league and the TV networks basically conspire to make the injuries in footbal seem like "accidents," when in fact the statistical likelihood of a career-ending or life-threatening injury for an NFL player is likely not dissimilar from that for a boxer. But at least in that event the NFL has a health-care and pension plan, both of which are again glaringly absent in boxing.
) excruciating slo-mo isn't considered excessively violent, whereas boxing is. It's of course complete bullshit - but in contrast to boxing the NFL has an organized league and literally billions of dollars of TV contracts. That means there's at least some semblance of accountability, and (more importantly) a whole lot of money at stake. So the league keeps things from getting too unwholesome, and the league and the TV networks basically conspire to make the injuries in footbal seem like "accidents," when in fact the statistical likelihood of a career-ending or life-threatening injury for an NFL player is likely not dissimilar from that for a boxer. But at least in that event the NFL has a health-care and pension plan, both of which are again glaringly absent in boxing.
Whenever I read interviews with boxers, almost all of them are of the belief that they are simply getting a job done. It's business and to hurt an opponent is simply a necessary requirement, if you get my drift. It's something that has to be done.
However, the very nature of the sport means that some of its practitioners are pretty vicious individuals who, despite the moral discomfort this may cause for others, will readily admit that they go into a ring to inflict injury.
One of the best examples of the differences in approach was revealed in a 1990 interview before Benn-Eubank I. Eubank was trying to explain that the animosity was not genuine and Nigel, refusing to look at Eubank during the whole piece, coldly said: "I genuinely do hate him." And he meant it!
However, the very nature of the sport means that some of its practitioners are pretty vicious individuals who, despite the moral discomfort this may cause for others, will readily admit that they go into a ring to inflict injury.
One of the best examples of the differences in approach was revealed in a 1990 interview before Benn-Eubank I. Eubank was trying to explain that the animosity was not genuine and Nigel, refusing to look at Eubank during the whole piece, coldly said: "I genuinely do hate him." And he meant it!
depends on the individuals involved some undoubtedly do, I mean tyson thrives on that intimidatory fear factor that he is gonna mangle his opponent, or rather he used to.
I cant believe that Benn went into the ring against Eubank not wanting to hurt his arch rival, even if Eubank might have seen it different.
Benn being a case in point was never the same fighter after he really did hurt someone tragically in the Macll. fight, but that doesnt defer from the fact that prior to that I believe yeah he went into the ring thinking Im gonna tear you to pieces.
So I personally think depends on the style and mindset of the individual fighter.
I cant believe that Benn went into the ring against Eubank not wanting to hurt his arch rival, even if Eubank might have seen it different.
Benn being a case in point was never the same fighter after he really did hurt someone tragically in the Macll. fight, but that doesnt defer from the fact that prior to that I believe yeah he went into the ring thinking Im gonna tear you to pieces.
So I personally think depends on the style and mindset of the individual fighter.
Most fighters (IMO) want to do more than is necessary to get the W. Eubank post Watson was a fighter who only did enough to get the W. I think most fighters obviously don't want to see damage on their opponent, but do want to "beat them up" and win well. By doing this, you are more likely to cause hurt.
Its an occupational hazzard, but it something that has to be done.
Its an occupational hazzard, but it something that has to be done.
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jamesmcdonnell
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I would agree with your statement there....
It depends on the fighter. I doubt Eubank ever went in to a fighter hating his opponent, he was able to rise above it in a way the mecurial Benn never could, he was just a simmering, bubbling pot of rage, and boxing was his outlet to vent himself in ways he was unable to do outside the ring, not being the most articulate of men.
Benn liked a 'tear-up' he liked the physical give and take, and I think he almost enjoyed being hurt, and thus having the opportunity to hurt his opponent back. Reading his autobiography it was clear that he LOVED fighting.
Eubank was always more cerebral about it, and whilst he was every bit as much a Warrior as Benn, he only generally hurt his opponents when the going got tough, he was content to win a fighter on his own terms, without going to the trenches, but if it was the trenches or bust, he could more than hold his own. His rally against Watson is a perfect example of the beast within which he was capable of releasing.
I think Roberto Duran liked to hurt his opponents, he was hardly the gracious of fighters in victory, and he got a visceral pleasure out of seeing his opponents crumple in front of him.
For some boxing is merely their job, for others, like Benn, Duran, and Tyson, it is an outlet and the extranerous manifestation of their inward rage and feelings of inadequacy, and these are the ones, who are probably in the minority who actually enjoy seeing their opponent crushed.
It depends on the fighter. I doubt Eubank ever went in to a fighter hating his opponent, he was able to rise above it in a way the mecurial Benn never could, he was just a simmering, bubbling pot of rage, and boxing was his outlet to vent himself in ways he was unable to do outside the ring, not being the most articulate of men.
Benn liked a 'tear-up' he liked the physical give and take, and I think he almost enjoyed being hurt, and thus having the opportunity to hurt his opponent back. Reading his autobiography it was clear that he LOVED fighting.
Eubank was always more cerebral about it, and whilst he was every bit as much a Warrior as Benn, he only generally hurt his opponents when the going got tough, he was content to win a fighter on his own terms, without going to the trenches, but if it was the trenches or bust, he could more than hold his own. His rally against Watson is a perfect example of the beast within which he was capable of releasing.
I think Roberto Duran liked to hurt his opponents, he was hardly the gracious of fighters in victory, and he got a visceral pleasure out of seeing his opponents crumple in front of him.
For some boxing is merely their job, for others, like Benn, Duran, and Tyson, it is an outlet and the extranerous manifestation of their inward rage and feelings of inadequacy, and these are the ones, who are probably in the minority who actually enjoy seeing their opponent crushed.
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The_Wild_Man
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Feelings of inadequacy?????jamesmcdonnell wrote: For some boxing is merely their job, for others, like Benn, Duran, and Tyson, it is an outlet and the extranerous manifestation of their inward rage and feelings of inadequacy, and these are the ones, who are probably in the minority who actually enjoy seeing their opponent crushed.
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jamesmcdonnell
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The_Wild_Man
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Yeah I guess you would feel worthless, I mean what did he have besides millions of dollars, the ability to pick up any chick he wanted, worldwide fame and a physique most men would die for. Other than that I guess yeah he did have nothing.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yeah, you don't think Mike Tyson was a man who was mentally crippled by feelings of worthlessness?
to be fair mate, James did indicate mentally. Self esteem and worth doesnt come form objects but from respect, friendships and self liking.The_Wild_Man wrote:Yeah I guess you would feel worthless, I mean what did he have besides millions of dollars, the ability to pick up any chick he wanted, worldwide fame and a physique most men would die for. Other than that I guess yeah he did have nothing.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yeah, you don't think Mike Tyson was a man who was mentally crippled by feelings of worthlessness?
None of which Tyson understands nor has had since Cus died.
the one that immediately sprung top mind here was alis fight v ernie terrell in 1967. terrell insisted on continuing to call ali 'clay' refusing to use his new name. ali gave terrell a concerted beating over 15 rounds. continually sticking hima nd calling out "whats my name"
to quote ali.. ".. terrell would use my slave name. that made it a personnal thing, so im gonna whup him till he addresses me by my proper name. im gonna give him a whupping, a spanking and a humiliation. i'll keep on hitting him and ill keep on talking. heres what ill say. dont you fall ernie 'wham!'. whats my name 'wham!' i'll just keep doing that until he calls me muhammed ali. i want to tortue him. a clean knockout is no good to me."
and he did. for 45 full minutes. ali had several opportunites during the fight to finish it, and he let them all go want ing to hurt terrell for as long as he could. this is interesting because this nasty streak that ali undoubtledly possessed is not often spoken about by those folks who wish to set him up as a modern day messiah.
to quote ali.. ".. terrell would use my slave name. that made it a personnal thing, so im gonna whup him till he addresses me by my proper name. im gonna give him a whupping, a spanking and a humiliation. i'll keep on hitting him and ill keep on talking. heres what ill say. dont you fall ernie 'wham!'. whats my name 'wham!' i'll just keep doing that until he calls me muhammed ali. i want to tortue him. a clean knockout is no good to me."
and he did. for 45 full minutes. ali had several opportunites during the fight to finish it, and he let them all go want ing to hurt terrell for as long as he could. this is interesting because this nasty streak that ali undoubtledly possessed is not often spoken about by those folks who wish to set him up as a modern day messiah.
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The_Wild_Man
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Didnt I cover that in my answer?J wrote:
to be fair mate, James did indicate mentally. Self esteem and worth doesnt come form objects but from respect, friendships and self liking.
None of which Tyson understands nor has had since Cus died.
He was loved (ie respected) by many and still is today (nasty!!!
). Plus add all his money, hot girlfriends etc I cant understand how he would feel worthless.......But then again some people can have everthying and still want more.