Well, I guess I sort of understand some of your reasoning but there are a couple of things to consider:
-What significant wins has Toney had at heavyweight?
-Marciano's win over Louis is completely meaningless. Louis was way past his best by then.
-Are you really that impressed with what Moorer and Byrd did?
Including small heavyweights who are the all time cruisers?
Toney who was really a cruiser at best had wins over Ruiz and Holyfield and a draw with Rahman as a heavweight as well as a close loss the first time versus PeterAmbling Alp wrote:Well, I guess I sort of understand some of your reasoning but there are a couple of things to consider:
-What significant wins has Toney had at heavyweight?
-Marciano's win over Louis is completely meaningless. Louis was way past his best by then.
-Are you really that impressed with what Moorer and Byrd did?
At the time Louis had won 8 in a row.
Both Moorer and Byrd were heavyweight champs and no I am not impressed but they were fighting against bigger men.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Toney's win over Ruiz doesn't count because he tested positive for steroids. It's not an official win. It's a no-contest.
His win over Holyfield isn't much of a big deal either. Holyfield was way past it by then. He was almost 41 years old by then. He had only won 2 of his last 7 fights.
He was lucky that the judges gave a draw with Rahman, who again was past it and wasn't that good even in his prime.
Joe Louis won 8 in a row but he was nowhere near the fighter that he had once been. In boxing, you can find always 8 "opponents" that you can beat. Notice he only scored 3 knockouts. He was 37, was very slow, couldn't follow up when he had his opponent hurt, and his reflexes were almost gone.
You have to take into consideration the stage of an opponent's career when you are looking at a fighter's career.
If you don't, than you aren't being fair to guys who fought that guy when he was in his prime.
For example, do you really think that it's as big of an achievement for Toney or Larry Donald to beat a way past it Holyfield as it was for Riddick Bowe to beat a prime Holyfield?
Was it as much of a challenge for Joey Archer to beat Ray Robinson as it was for Randy Turpin?
Was it as big of a deal for all of those guys who beat Ezzard Charles at the end of his carreer as it was for Marciano to have beaten Charles?
If you are really going to thow the stage of a fighters career out the window and not count it at all, then you should be really impressed with Michael Spinks beating Holmes (after all Holmes had won 48 in a row) and should have Spinks ranked very high; but you don't.
His win over Holyfield isn't much of a big deal either. Holyfield was way past it by then. He was almost 41 years old by then. He had only won 2 of his last 7 fights.
He was lucky that the judges gave a draw with Rahman, who again was past it and wasn't that good even in his prime.
Joe Louis won 8 in a row but he was nowhere near the fighter that he had once been. In boxing, you can find always 8 "opponents" that you can beat. Notice he only scored 3 knockouts. He was 37, was very slow, couldn't follow up when he had his opponent hurt, and his reflexes were almost gone.
You have to take into consideration the stage of an opponent's career when you are looking at a fighter's career.
If you don't, than you aren't being fair to guys who fought that guy when he was in his prime.
For example, do you really think that it's as big of an achievement for Toney or Larry Donald to beat a way past it Holyfield as it was for Riddick Bowe to beat a prime Holyfield?
Was it as much of a challenge for Joey Archer to beat Ray Robinson as it was for Randy Turpin?
Was it as big of a deal for all of those guys who beat Ezzard Charles at the end of his carreer as it was for Marciano to have beaten Charles?
If you are really going to thow the stage of a fighters career out the window and not count it at all, then you should be really impressed with Michael Spinks beating Holmes (after all Holmes had won 48 in a row) and should have Spinks ranked very high; but you don't.
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
I wouldn't mind mixing Orlin Norris into this list. His run as cruiserweight champ was short, but he did very well as an undersized heavyweight. How about De Leon or Occasio?Ambling Alp wrote:Thats a pretty good list. i would add Corbett, Fitzsimmons,Schmeling, and Johansson. They were atleast as good as some of the guys mentioned.actjac wrote:What an all time list this would have made had there been a cruiser division. Probably the best ATG list.
Marciano
Dempsey
Langford
Quarry
Tunney
Patterson
Spinks
Foster
Charles
Machen
Mooere
Frazier
Holyfield
Byrd
Toney
Moorer
I would also add Harold Johnson. He actually did better against good heavyweights than Moore.
Tommy Loughran would be another possibility.