Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 05 May 2008, 19:34

I dont think that Tunney beats Ali. As interesting a match as that would be.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 05 May 2008, 21:49

Peak Larry Holmes has a very viable chance against Ali, imo.

Peak Frazier, always viable.

Tunney, no shot.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 06 May 2008, 00:29

Yancey, why do you think Tunney would have had "no shot" against Ali?

Robinson · Post by **Robinson** » 06 May 2008, 07:22

Ray

How do you see an Ali - Tunney fight playing out ?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 06 May 2008, 09:12

I would never say a great fighter like Tunney would have "no chance" but I would give him very little chance of beating Ali. They were extremely similar fighters, with Tunney being a little more technically proficient and Ali being a little faster. The difference would be the strength and power of Ali, Tunney was a natural light HW who went up and showed his stuff vs a faded Dempsey, but was not a big hitter. His lack of knockout power would ensure a defeat against the just as slick and fast (and bigger) Ali. Quite possibly by referee stoppage in the later rounds.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 06 May 2008, 09:55

Robinson wrote:Ray

How do you see an Ali - Tunney fight playing out ?

No idea. They fought 50-years apart. I don't do hypothetical match-ups of fighters of different eras. Too many imponderables.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 06 May 2008, 11:48

4 guys who would beat a prime Ali.

Slim, None, Nobody, and Try Again

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 06 May 2008, 18:18

ringsider wrote:4 guys who would beat a prime Ali.

Slim, None, Nobody, and Try Again

nobody is invincible..Norton and Frazier proved it.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 07 May 2008, 14:58

They didn't' do it against a 1964-1967 Ali, which is what you were asking about when you started this thread.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 08 May 2008, 21:26

Ambling Alp wrote:They didn't' do it against a 1964-1967 Ali, which is what you were asking about when you started this thread.

What would be the difference? I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 May 2008, 21:44

elmersalsa wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:They didn't' do it against a 1964-1967 Ali, which is what you were asking about when you started this thread.
What would be the difference? I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa.

Just a suggestion....

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 08 May 2008, 22:13

BoxBuzz wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:They didn't' do it against a 1964-1967 Ali, which is what you were asking about when you started this thread.
What would be the difference? I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa.
Just a suggestion....

And it is NOT a suggestion that Ali of the 60s beat those guys? Is it a RULE? WOULD ALI BEAT THEM ALL THE TIME?

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » 08 May 2008, 22:23

Elmer i dont see how u got Bowe beating Ali.

He was good, but u cant actually believe someone who struggled to Golota to beat Ali...

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 08 May 2008, 22:31

observer1 wrote:Elmer i dont see how u got Bowe beating Ali.

He was good, but u cant actually believe someone who struggled to Golota to beat Ali...

That Bowe was not the same Bowe that magnificently beat the great Evander Holyfield for the crown.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 09 May 2008, 00:32

elmersalsa wrote:
ringsider wrote:4 guys who would beat a prime Ali.

Slim, None, Nobody, and Try Again

nobody is invincible..Norton and Frazier proved it.

It said prime Ali........

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 May 2008, 07:39

elmersalsa wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:
elmersalsa wrote: What would be the difference? I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa.
Just a suggestion....

And it is NOT a suggestion that Ali of the 60s beat those guys? Is it a RULE? WOULD ALI BEAT THEM ALL THE TIME?

No I don't disagree.....just like great football...anything can happen. I just couldnt' resist kickin' back and "shillin"

But in these cases, all things being equal if you bet on Ali in each case, my guess is you would come out ahead at the end of the run.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 09 May 2008, 09:21

elmersalsa wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:They didn't' do it against a 1964-1967 Ali, which is what you were asking about when you started this thread.
What would be the difference? I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa.

You just said we can't count the 28 year old Bowe of the Golota fights . . . .

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 09 May 2008, 14:57

dempseyfire wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:They didn't' do it against a 1964-1967 Ali, which is what you were asking about when you started this thread.
What would be the difference? I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa.
You just said we can't count the 28 year old Bowe of the Golota fights . . . .

Bowe was through after the Holyfield fights. He probably was not the same fighter once he started eating in EXCESS and having the good life. That was shown on the fight of the "Fan Man"...After that, it was over for him.

Someone said that a MIND is a terribly thing to waste...With Bowe, it was a great TALENT wasted in one fight.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 09 May 2008, 15:42

[quote="elmersalsa"]Many say that the Muhammad Ali, circa 1964-67 was the best that ever was. That that Ali of that era, was untouchable, and no heavyweight before or after him, could have beaten him. Here in my opinion are 4 heavyweight greats that would have beaten him every time.

elmer, elmer,
Originally you said that these 4 would have beaten him every time.
The title of the post is Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him.

That is a huge difference from your recent comment "I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton, and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa. "

Do you even know what you are saying?

You have gone from concluding that Holmes, Frazier, Norton, and Holyfield would surely win every time against the 1964-1967 Ali to saying that it could go either way.
Well, if that is really what you think, I guess that's some progress.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 10 May 2008, 21:21

Ambling Alp wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:Many say that the Muhammad Ali, circa 1964-67 was the best that ever was. That that Ali of that era, was untouchable, and no heavyweight before or after him, could have beaten him. Here in my opinion are 4 heavyweight greats that would have beaten him every time.

elmer, elmer,
Originally you said that these 4 would have beaten him every time.
The title of the post is Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him.

That is a huge difference from your recent comment "I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton, and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa. "

Do you even know what you are saying?

You have gone from concluding that Holmes, Frazier, Norton, and Holyfield would surely win every time against the 1964-1967 Ali to saying that it could go either way.
Well, if that is really what you think, I guess that's some progress.

That is why I have said 'NOBODY IS INVENCIBLE" alp...Norton, Holmes, Bowe, Frazier and Holyfield were beaten in their careers. Ali LOST 3 TIMES to Norton. What would the difference be if it were the Ali of the 60s.?

thunderfromdownunder · Post by **thunderfromdownunder** » 10 May 2008, 23:24

i think Holmes has the best chance, a great jab is the key to beating a speedster, and holmes had the best of all.

frazier would always give ali of any era problems.

Norton, dunno, he fought good against a washed up ali, but in the second fight i thought whenever Ali got up on hius toes and danced he dealed with kenny pretty well, and Ali of 64-67 could do that for the entire fight

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 11 May 2008, 00:08

thunderfromdownunder wrote:i think Holmes has the best chance, a great jab is the key to beating a speedster, and holmes had the best of all.

frazier would always give ali of any era problems.

Norton, dunno, he fought good against a washed up ali, but in the second fight i thought whenever Ali got up on hius toes and danced he dealed with kenny pretty well, and Ali of 64-67 could do that for the entire fight

he had amazing fitness in his legs at that time thats for sure

VoiceOnTV · Post by **VoiceOnTV** » 12 May 2008, 02:47

I was a huge fan of Bowe and agree with everything posted at the start of this thread. He never really reached what could've been his peak, so I'll say no to him.

Fraizer and Ali in their primes is a near toss-up. We almost had that in their first fight, so Fraizer gets a maybe.

I too agree that Norton won all three fights. A faster and sharper Ali in his prime would've fared I think much better against Ken, but styles make fights and Ali in three attempts never figured out Norton's so he gets a maybe too.

Holyfield for all his heart just would've struggled finding Muhammad. Out of your list he's the one I think that would have the least chance. I said in reference to Norton that styles make fights. This is the antithesis of Norton I think; a style made for Ali to dominate.

Of the whole list I'll give the best chance to Holmes who I think is one of the top 5 heavyweight champs of all times and the most underrated. Ali's jab was always the first problem his opponents had to contend with. Imagine a guy matching speedy jabs with him but having legitimate power behind his. Holmes dropped an opponent with a jab once. Earnie Shavers called it a "piledriver." That jab would give Holmes opportunities to land follow-up shots on Ali that most opponents couldn't hope to, and he had very good power behind his right. His endurance was excellent and his heart and chin as witnessed in that second Shavers fight were top notch too! If anyone on this list has the tools and the style to match wits with Muhammad prime vs. prime, I'll say Holmes is the best bet.

therock1 · Post by **therock1** » 12 May 2008, 06:07

There are plenty of fighters who could have beaten, or at least gone the distance with ali, tyson in his prime would have been a handfull, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 May 2008, 08:55

elmersalsa wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:Many say that the Muhammad Ali, circa 1964-67 was the best that ever was. That that Ali of that era, was untouchable, and no heavyweight before or after him, could have beaten him. Here in my opinion are 4 heavyweight greats that would have beaten him every time.

elmer, elmer,
Originally you said that these 4 would have beaten him every time.
The title of the post is Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him.

That is a huge difference from your recent comment "I could see Holmes, Frazier, Norton, and even Holyfield beating Ali at any part of Ali's career and viceversa. "

Do you even know what you are saying?

You have gone from concluding that Holmes, Frazier, Norton, and Holyfield would surely win every time against the 1964-1967 Ali to saying that it could go either way.
Well, if that is really what you think, I guess that's some progress.
That is why I have said 'NOBODY IS INVENCIBLE" alp...Norton, Holmes, Bowe, Frazier and Holyfield were beaten in their careers. Ali LOST 3 TIMES to Norton. What would the difference be if it were the Ali of the 60s.?

What would be the difference? Well, first off, Norton didn't beat Ali three times as you said. Norton only beat Ali once out of 3 times. Ali was past his best in the early 70's. (1970-1975), though still great. To his credit, Norton won the first, Ali the second, both in 1973.
By the time they fought a 3rd time Ali in 1976, was way past his best, and it was still a close fight and Ali got the decision. If you think Norton should got the decision in the 3rd fight, fine. So what. He was facing a old 34 year old who had been in a lot of brutal fights. That isn't the remotely the same as beating a prime Ali.

What would be the difference if Norton fought the Ali of 1964-1967? A lot. An awful lot. Ali was much faster and had much better reflexes when he was younger in the 1960's than the older Ali of 1973 and the way past it Ali of 1976. He also had better stamina when he was younger and could fight at a faster pace.
Norton would be much less effective offensively. Ali was much faster on his feet when he was 22-25 years old than he was when he was older. Norton would have a lot more trouble catching him.

Ali's hand speed was also much faster when he was in his prime. He would hit Norton a lot more than the older Ali did.

Ali wins either a relatively easy decision if he doesn't stop Norton.

The Ali of 1970-1975 would be a bout an even fight with Holmes and we saw what happened against Frazier. Holyfield would be a tough fight but Ali would win more often than not. Bowe (assuming that he trained hard) would likewise be a tough fight.
Yes they probably would have beat an Ali from 1976 on. So what? A prime Ali would have had absolutley no trouble againts Holmes from the mid 1980's on, the Norton after his fight with Holmes, Holyfield when he got old.

The 1964-1967 Ali had great footspeed and phenomenal reflexes that helped make him a great defensive fighter. He had phenomenal handspeed and great accurracy which helped make him a great offensive fighter.
The bottom line is that Ali is going to hit them with clean punches a lot more than they are going to hit him which means they aren't going to outpoint him. They aren't going to knock him out either. Barring some fluke (horrible decision by a judge, cut, etc.) they aren't going to win.

I will try again to explain why what you said recently contradicts what you have said originally.
Originally you said that they would "Surely" beat Ali everytime.

Now you are saying that could see it going either way.
Do you even read your own posts?

Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

Re: Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

Re: Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him

Re: Ali in his prime: 4 guys that SURELY would've beaten him