Ambling Alp wrote:elmersalsa wrote:Ambling Alp wrote:
That is why I have said 'NOBODY IS INVENCIBLE" alp...Norton, Holmes, Bowe, Frazier and Holyfield were beaten in their careers. Ali LOST 3 TIMES to Norton. What would the difference be if it were the Ali of the 60s.?
What would be the difference? Well, first off, Norton didn't beat Ali three times as you said. Norton only beat Ali once out of 3 times. Ali was past his best in the early 70's. (1970-1975), though still great. To his credit, Norton won the first, Ali the second, both in 1973.
By the time they fought a 3rd time Ali in 1976, was way past his best, and it was still a close fight and Ali got the decision. If you think Norton should got the decision in the 3rd fight, fine. So what. He was facing a old 34 year old who had been in a lot of brutal fights. That isn't the remotely the same as beating a prime Ali.
What would be the difference if Norton fought the Ali of 1964-1967?
A lot.
An awful lot. Ali was much faster and had much better reflexes when he was younger in the 1960's than the older Ali of 1973 and the way past it Ali of 1976. He also had better stamina when he was younger and could fight at a faster pace.
Norton would be much less effective offensively. Ali was much faster on his feet when he was 22-25 years old than he was when he was older. Norton would have a lot more trouble catching him.
Ali's hand speed was also much faster when he was in his prime. He would hit Norton a lot more than the older Ali did.
Ali wins either a relatively easy decision if he doesn't stop Norton.
The Ali of 1970-1975 would be a bout an even fight with Holmes and we saw what happened against Frazier. Holyfield would be a tough fight but Ali would win more often than not. Bowe (assuming that he trained hard) would likewise be a tough fight.
Yes they probably would have beat an Ali from 1976 on. So what? A prime Ali would have had absolutley no trouble againts Holmes from the mid 1980's on, the Norton after his fight with Holmes, Holyfield when he got old.
The 1964-1967 Ali had great footspeed and phenomenal reflexes that helped make him a great defensive fighter. He had phenomenal handspeed and great accurracy which helped make him a great offensive fighter.
The bottom line is that Ali is going to hit them with clean punches a lot more than they are going to hit him which means they aren't going to outpoint him. They aren't going to knock him out either. Barring some fluke (horrible decision by a judge, cut, etc.) they aren't going to win.
I will try again to explain why what you said recently contradicts what you have said originally.
Originally you said that they would "Surely" beat Ali everytime.
Now you are saying that could see it going either way.
Do you even read your own posts?
Do not get carry on with the Ali's INVENCIBILITY'S FIASCO. NOBODY IS UNBEATABLE. Ken Norton and Joe Frazier proved it. Ali of the 60s was as fast as he can be, but he fought GUYS WITH LIMITED SKILLS. The ONLY guy of that group that HAD SKILLS that Ali beat handily was Sonny Liston...The rest? Let's see:
Floyd Patterson: Too small for a heavyweight...It was a total mismatch. Plus Floyd was ALREADY WASHED UP, EVEN though he came after a big win against George Chuvalo.
George Chuvalo: Did he had any boxing skills? All I see of him was pure strenght and great stamina, and that could take a good shot. Any one that can box, would beat him.
Zora Folley: Way past his prime and was giving Ali problems at the beginning of the fight. Ali, like a GREAT CHAMPION, solved the puzzle. But Folley is not even NEAR to Ken Norton, Joe Frazier or Larry Holmes.
Henry Cooper: What can we say about him? Lost to washed up Patterson. Also too small for heavyweights like Ali.
Cleveland Williams: Another residue of Sonny Liston...Just like Patterson...This was Ali's best performance of the 60s, I mean COMPLETE PERFORMANCE in which we saw his brilliance. I know you got the tape. I got it too.
Brian London: A Floyd Patterson victim? What did e brings to the table. Even today, he would not be champion.
Karl Minddleberger: My gosh. Some people say that gave Ali problems of his southpaw stance. Not a champion IN NO ERA.
Ernie Terrell: Clumsy as he can be. Big for nothing. Got an ass whupping like he deserved by the Greatest. Was he very good as Kenny or Smokin' Joe? Riddick Bowe would have tear him off to pieces.
Doug Jones: Nice win...Is he better than Ken Norton? You really believe that?
Archie Moore: That guy was damaged goods and you know it. Besides, even in his prime, he did not belong in the heavyweight class. Was he almost 50 when he fought 20-year old Clay?
So this is the great competition of the great Muhammad Ali of the 60s? Not good enough to beat Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe or Larry Holmes. His opposition of the 60s is as bad as the opposition of the 80s for Holmes and Mike Tyson.
Do you really BELIEVE that Ali won the second and third fights with Norton?
I believe it was more of the media, the judges and the promoters of helping Ali getting his title back more than he really won those fights.
He lost to Jimmy Young. Well, YOU CANNOT MAKE ANY MONEY WITH JIMMY YOUNG.
YOU CANNOT MAKE ANY MONEY WITH KEN NORTON. THAT IS WHY HE DID NOT GET THE DECISION, WHICH HE TRULY DESERVED THE VICTORY. THE VIDEOS SAY OTHERWISE. THE JUDGES? WHAT DO THEY SEE? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The only way I see Ali beating Norton if the referee allows him to hold Norton behind the neck. Norton was as fast as Ali of the 60s. His body punching would be a KEY. Many of Ali's blows would be blocked by Norton's gloves and arms as he, Norton, would be pressing the action. None of the heavyweights that Ali fought in the 60s, were as fast as Ken Norton, NONE OF THEM. That is what I saw on film. I was surprised at Kenny's speed.
When I'm saying that SURELY, they would beat him every time, they would beat him every time at their very best. THESE GUYS are the ONLY ONES that could beat him all the time, OR MOST OF THE TIME, in my view. I will put my money on those guys against Ali every time. Why? These guys are not as goofy as the likes of Terrell, Chuvalo and the others...These guys (Holmes, Norton, Frazier, Holyfield and Bowe) can fight....They could really fight.
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT ALI WON THE 2ND AND 3RD FIGHTS WITH NORTON?
