larry holmes proposed 50th fight unbeaten

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Berbick . .Weaver . .Cooney . .Shavers . . Smith?? I think the likes of Nova, Pastor, Farr are clear favorites over them, and Galento, Baer, Mann, and Godoy are even money fights. Cooney and Weaver were big punchers but had very weak chins. Some of Louis's title challengers didn't produce the HL reel KOs of a Shavers or Cooney but they had two essential traits, stamina and durability, which would prove major obstacles to those opponents gaining the W. I would bet the house the likes of a Godoy would take all Shavers would throw and later knock him out. Sure, Buddy Baer wasn't a great boxer, but the guy had massive power and could take a hellacious amount of punishment before getting taken out . . .look at the first Louis fight . . .Cooney would've been out by the 2nd round in that fight." - DempseyFire

I think you're forgetting this was all resolved by Alp sometime ago. He knows the 40's Heavyweights. They sucked, in his words. It is written. It's a lucky thing they sucked, too, otherwise Joe might start to impinge on Muhammad's untouchable image --- we couldn't have that, anymore than we can dare to speak of the Benitez cut (an absolute bastard, anyone who mentions it).

[Ambling Alp]

He was sort of playing devils advocate to what homicidehenry did in the post previous to his.
Earlier, Homocidehenry had earlier took Louis' best challengers and compared them to Holmes' worst challengers. So Robinson was flipping it around.

Of course, neither way proves very much. Yes Holmes best opponents were better than Louis' opponents, and Louis' best opponents were better than Holmes worst. So what.

Probably the fairest way would be to rank Louis' challengers in order of best to worst and then do the same for Holmes. Then compare them man for man. ie, Louis #1 challenger vs Holmes' #1 challenger, then #2 vs # 2 and so on. Of course, even this doesn't work perfectly because Louis had more opponents so you have to decide who you aren't going to count.

Walcott and Schmeling were better than any of Holmes title defenses. However, after that, Holmes had several opponents better than any of Louis title defenses.
At a minimum, Smith,Witherspoon,Cooney,Berbick,Shavers,and Weaver were clearly better than anyone else that Louis defended the title against.

Berbick . .Weaver . .Cooney . .Shavers . . Smith?? I think the likes of Nova, Pastor, Farr are clear favorites over them, and Galento, Baer, Mann, and Godoy are even money fights. Cooney and Weaver were big punchers but had very weak chins. Some of Louis's title challengers didn't produce the HL reel KOs of a Shavers or Cooney but they had two essential traits, stamina and durability, which would prove major obstacles to those opponents gaining the W. I would bet the house the likes of a Godoy would take all Shavers would throw and later knock him out. Sure, Buddy Baer wasn't a great boxer, but the guy had massive power and could take a hellacious amount of punishment before getting taken out . . .look at the first Louis fight . . .Cooney would've been out by the 2nd round in that fight.

Well, the alphabet soup champions of the early 1980's weren't that great, but they were certainly better than the fighters that you mentioned. I don't think Cooney had that bad of a chin at all. Certainly better than many of the 1940's guys mentioned. He could also punch a lot harder than any of these guys.
Weaver didn't have that bad of a chin at all. He was only stopped twice in his prime. One was premature stoppage against Dokes and the other one was in the 12th round in a tough fight against Holmes. He had long fights against Dokes,Coatzee, and Tate and wasn't knocked out, in fact he won two of them.These guys were pretty hard punchers.

You can't just look at the weaknesses of the 1980's fighters and the strengths of the 1940's guys.
Bob Pastor? He got knocked out by Billy Conn. Billy Conn. Billy Conn seldom could even knockout lightheavyweights. It's unlikely that Pastor is going the distance against any of these guys.


Farr-Has some notable wins and gave Louis a lot of trouble. He also was very inconsistent and lost way too many times.

Godoy-Unlikely that he would beat these guys. didn't have a big punch and certainly wasn't
a great boxer. Had a good chin. So did Trevor Berbick. Would likely lose decisions to these guys.

Nova-A tough guy, but certainly could be outboxed and could be knocked out by a good puncher. Had no special skills.

Galento-If he fought these days, he would be laughed at for being grossly out of shape, too short for a heavyweight, wild swinging, and having no defense. His fight against Max Baer is on youtube. He looks pathetic. Held on for dear life. Any decent boxer or anyone with decent power would beat him. Doubtful he could go the distance against Witherspoon,Smith,Weaver and Berbick. He wouldn't last 4 rounds against Shavers and Cooney.

Overall, the heavyweights of the 1940's have never been considered that good at all. Not including the current decade, every decade before or since has been better. I don't understand the fascination with them here lately.

Yes the guys that Holmes fought had their flaws and some were underachievers. However, the best ones were much better than most of the opponents that Louis defended the title against.

This isn't to say that Louis would have lost to these guys. However, he probably wouldn't have had as many easy fights against Holmes competition as he did his own.

[dempseyfire]

I'll concur with Goodnight, the 1940s guys all sucked, the likes of Bonecrusher Smith, Gerry Cooney, and Renaldo Snipes were near greats who would've knocked out all of Louis's title-defense opponents in the first round. Thanks for the update.

[Cap]

Uh, didn't Cooney get knocked out cold by a light heavyweight?

The heavyweights of the 1980s were average guys. Trevor Berbick may even have been the best of them. Coetzee had a major self-confidence problem. Weaver had poor defence. John Tate had a weak chin. Renaldo Snipes was one-dimensional. Etc etc.

The heavyweights of the 1940s had their flaws too. Take the '80s guys and throw them into the 1940s environment and some would sink and some would survive. The reverse is true as well.

[raylawpc]

Uh, didn't Cooney get knocked out cold by a light heavyweight?

No, but he was TKOed by a 208 3/4 pound Michael Spinks.

[Ambling Alp]

That is sort of one of my points.
If you are going to say that Cooney couldn't take a punch, then how about Bob Pastor?
Yes, Cooney got stopped by a 208 pound Michael Spinks. Certainly not exactly something to brag about for Cooney.
However, that isn't even close to being as embarrassing as a heavyweight being knocked out by the 174 pound Billy Conn, which is what happened to Pastor.
At least Spinks was a pretty hard hitting lightheavyweight. No doubt he had more power when he weighed 208 than when he weighed 175.
However, Conn was not even a hard hitting lightheavyweight by any means. Going into the Pastor fight, he only had 8 knockouts in 63 fights, almost all against middleweights and lightheavyweights. Then, without bulking up, Conn starts fighting heavyweights and knocks out one of the best ones, Pastor. That really doesn't say much for Pastor or for the heavyweight division at the time for that matter.

[raylawpc]

That is sort of one of my points.
If you are going to say that Cooney couldn't take a punch, then how about Bob Pastor?
Yes, Cooney got stopped by a 208 pound Michael Spinks. Certainly not exactly something to brag about for Cooney.
However, that isn't even close to being as embarrassing as a heavyweight being knocked out by the 174 pound Billy Conn, which is what happened to Pastor.
At least Spinks was a pretty hard hitting lightheavyweight. No doubt he had more power when he weighed 208 than when he weighed 175.
However, Conn was not even a hard hitting lightheavyweight by any means. Going into the Pastor fight, he only had 8 knockouts in 63 fights, almost all against middleweights and lightheavyweights. Then, without bulking up, Conn starts fighting heavyweights and knocks out one of the best ones, Pastor. That really doesn't say much for Pastor or for the heavyweight division at the time for that matter.

Actually, it wasn't my intent to help you make a point. I just thought it was somewhat disingenuous of Cap to call Spinks a "light-heavyweight" when he scaled nearly 209 for the fight. That's more than Joe Frazier weighed for a majority of his fights, and more than Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Rocky Marciano, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Ezzard Charles ever weighed. Indeed, Joe Louis never scaled over 208 until after World War II. It's also less than a young Muhammad Ali weighed for three of this title defenses - against Cooper, Mildenberger and Liston.

[dempseyfire]

That is sort of one of my points.
If you are going to say that Cooney couldn't take a punch, then how about Bob Pastor?
Yes, Cooney got stopped by a 208 pound Michael Spinks. Certainly not exactly something to brag about for Cooney.
However, that isn't even close to being as embarrassing as a heavyweight being knocked out by the 174 pound Billy Conn, which is what happened to Pastor.
At least Spinks was a pretty hard hitting lightheavyweight. No doubt he had more power when he weighed 208 than when he weighed 175.
However, Conn was not even a hard hitting lightheavyweight by any means. Going into the Pastor fight, he only had 8 knockouts in 63 fights, almost all against middleweights and lightheavyweights. Then, without bulking up, Conn starts fighting heavyweights and knocks out one of the best ones, Pastor. That really doesn't say much for Pastor or for the heavyweight division at the time for that matter.

That point sucks. In 65 fights, Pastor was Ko'd twice, once by Louis (who he went the distance with) and by Conn, who did it with speed and body shots. Pastor went the distance with and/defeated a slew of fighters who were known for their punching power. He was a very durable fighter who succumbed to an all-time great Light Heavyweight in Conn.

Cooney on the other hand blew away his Senior Citizen opponents pre-Holmes early before they had a chance to land anything. Then he becomes one of the few Holmes opponents to actually go down early from one Holmes punch (along with Marvis Frazier), as Larry was far from having one-punch KO power and needed a strong accumulation of punches to wear guys down. From then on, Cooney fails to make it past 7 combined rounds vs Spinks and an old Foreman (and Foreman didn't knock any other upper-tier opponents out early in his comeback) He didn't go down from well-timed body shots, he was down straight from shots to the chin.

[Robinson]

Guys

Where can I see footage of alot of these 30s and 40s HW ?
Aprt from there fights with Louis.

For example Bob Pastor....I would like to see how he looks and what his talents were ?

What fights have you seen that has secured your knowledge on Pastor.

I have about 10 or so of Cooney's fights and a fair bit of him sparring and training.
He was not a great, though I doubt his heart was truely into the sport.
But the fact remains the man hit hard and was strong and he was there before
our eyes to be commended and criticised.

[Cap]

Uh, didn't Cooney get knocked out cold by a light heavyweight?

No, but he was TKOed by a 208 3/4 pound Michael Spinks.

a blown-up light heavyweight like Roy Jones. In two fights with Holmes I can't recall him really hurting Holmes. Oh yeah. He did manage to stop mighty Steffen Tangstad (sic) I think.

I have a nice BW shot of Pastor crunching Conn's face with a sweet left hook. There was some bad blood between these two and Conn also wanted to prove to Louis' promoter that he could KO a heavyweight, so he threw everything but the kitchen stove at Pastor.

[raylawpc]

Uh, didn't Cooney get knocked out cold by a light heavyweight?

No, but he was TKOed by a 208 3/4 pound Michael Spinks.

a blown-up light heavyweight like Roy Jones. In two fights with Holmes I can't recall him really hurting Holmes. Oh yeah. He did manage to stop mighty Steffen Tangstad (sic) I think.

So . . . if he had managed to hurt Holmes, you would consider him a legitimate heavyweight?

His recorded weights for the first Holmes fight to the last fight with Tyson were 199-3/4, 205, 201, 208-3/4 and 212. That's not a heavyweight?

Were Patterson, Johansson, Walcott, Marciano, and Charles not heavyweights?

[dempseyfire]

Robinson: I have Pastor's first fight with Louis in full, and highlights of the rematch. He shows very good boxing skills and the ability to take a punch, particularly in the first fight with the Brown Bomber.

Cooney was no bum, and the power and speed in his left hook was no joke. But he had a very weak chin and, almost because of his awesome power (as well as his promoters padding his record up to the Holmes fight), never developed finely-tuned boxing skills.

Regarding Spinks' size, he got Shilstone on board and got up to the lower 200s. However, he remained with the frame of a light Heavyweight. Chris Byrd and Liston both weighed 215 but Byrd never had anything close to Sonny's strength or power.

[raylawpc]

Regarding Spinks' size, he got Shilstone on board and got up to the lower 200s. However, he remained with the frame of a light Heavyweight. Chris Byrd and Liston both weighed 215 but Byrd never had anything close to Sonny's strength or power.

Looks like he has a pretty good frame to me:

[Robinson]

Thanks DF
I have seen most of his fight vs Louis...but not much else.

I think in regards to M Spinks alot of people think of him small, because compared to the guys at his time he was. Sure he was a LHW...but so was alot of other guys that wore the HW strap at one point in time.

Moorer, Spinks, Holyfield, Byrd etc all look 'small' amongst those big guys.
Guess what so would guys from the past. Its just that a Jeffries or Johnson
looks big compared to alot of his foes, because they are small men.

Spinks was an awkward guy, we all know that and he had good power at LHW.
His aggressive style obviously transferred well to HW and it is a shame that he
never faced more HW's.

Being KO'd by Spinks when cooney was, proves two things....one is that post holmes
Cooney was very in-frequent and never really seemed to fit in the HW picture again with
any real legitimacy. He was inactive in the ring and the gym.

Spinks though smaller was aggressive and smacked his man, and got the KO.

In regards to Cooney being dropped by Holmes early...he still got up and held his
own there after. That Knock down was better or worse than an Ali being dropped
by a Henry Cooper or Sonny Banks.... or by a Louis being knocked down by...nearly
every one ... ? Its a knock down...so what.

And the Foreman KO. Well George hits hard.

cooney I dont think had the best chin. But its not going to be the sort of chin that
a Billy Conn would drop...if you think that...then good for you.

[dempseyfire]

That tale of the tape isn't changing my view at all, especially since they are often very unreliable. There is a large difference between a guy who can train down to 175 (and Spinks had same day weigh-ins) and then via weight training and eating get up to 200 plus, and a man naturally large who trains down to 200. The likes of Byrd and Spinks were, and would look, noticeably smaller than the likes of a Johnson, Louis, and Dempsey. Spinks was a natural light HW, it doesn't really matter what his arm length or ankle measurements were.

[Robinson]

Spinks would have made Jack Johnson seem small.

[Ambling Alp]

Cooney didn't have a very weak chin. If he did, he certainly wouldn't have lasted until the 13th round against Holmes. You have to have atleast a decent chin to do that. Not to mention that it was a competitive fight.

Cooney was stopped 3 times in his career: by Holmes, Spinks and Foreman. He certainly didn't have an iron chin, but to say he had a weak chin is a big exaggeration.

The guys that Holmes fought certainly had their weaknesses of the guys, but overall they were better. If you are going to rip Cooney, then you have to consider:

-Lou Nova was stopped 6 times.
-Tommy Farr was stopped 5 times and lost 30 fights. Should have been able to beat a washed up Jimmy Braddock easily but he couldn't.
-Tony Galento was stopped 6 times.
-Even Buddy Baer got stopped by the legendary Gunner Barlund.

It's not like Spinks ko's Cooney with one punch. Spinks hit him with multiple punches him with everything he had. Even at 175, Spinks was a much harder puncher than Billy Conn was. At a solid 208, he had decent power.

There is no way that Cooney would have been knocked out by Billy Conn like Pastor was.
That Louis was the only other heavyweight during the era that knocked out Pastor is yet one more indication of how bad the heavyweight division was at the time.

[raylawpc]

I have new found respect for Michael Spinks and Thomas Hearns:

Hearns managed to be the only 159-pound welterweight in boxing history when he fought Marvin Hagler, and

Spinks managed to be the only 208-pound light-heavyweight in boxing history when he fought Cooney.

Truly, two boxing miracle men of the late 80s!!

[dempseyfire]

Spinks would have made Jack Johnson seem small.

That makes no sense. Johnson could've never dropped down to 175, his skeletal frame combined with his overall muscle/body mass composition would've sent him to the hospital on an IV (or whatever they had back then)

Johnson was a big man, even at 220 vs Moran he displays a pretty good muscular physique. If Spinks had ever gone up to 220 he would've looked like a baloon (and he didn't look very good at 212 v Tyson to me)

[dempseyfire]

Cooney didn't have a very weak chin. If he did, he certainly wouldn't have lasted until the 13th round against Holmes. You have to have atleast a decent chin to do that. Not to mention that it was a competitive fight.

Cooney was stopped 3 times in his career: by Holmes, Spinks and Foreman. He certainly didn't have an iron chin, but to say he had a weak chin is a big exaggeration.

The guys that Holmes fought certainly had their weaknesses of the guys, but overall they were better. If you are going to rip Cooney, then you have to consider:

-Lou Nova was stopped 6 times.
-Tommy Farr was stopped 5 times and lost 30 fights. Should have been able to beat a washed up Jimmy Braddock easily but he couldn't.
-Tony Galento was stopped 6 times.
-Even Buddy Baer got stopped by the legendary Gunner Barlund.

It's not like Spinks ko's Cooney with one punch. Spinks hit him with multiple punches him with everything he had. Even at 175, Spinks was a much harder puncher than Billy Conn was. At a solid 208, he had decent power.

There is no way that Cooney would have been knocked out by Billy Conn like Pastor was.
That Louis was the only other heavyweight during the era that knocked out Pastor is yet one more indication of how bad the heavyweight division was at the time.

Great job there perusing boxrec, and completly dismissing the actual context of the fights with which you speak (even boxrec itself would tell you, that 2 of Nova's 6 stoppages were on cuts and the Galento KO loss was from a thumb to the eye, or that a majority of Farr's losses came when he was still a teenager)

[raylawpc]

Spinks would have made Jack Johnson seem small.

That makes no sense. Johnson could've never dropped down to 175, his skeletal frame combined with his overall muscle/body mass composition would've sent him to the hospital on an IV (or whatever they had back then)

Johnson was a big man, even at 220 vs Moran he displays a pretty good muscular physique. If Spinks had ever gone up to 220 he would've looked like a baloon (and he didn't look very good at 212 v Tyson to me)

Personally, Johnson's midsection against Moran and Willard reminds me of a stuffed sausage. I also thought he looked a tad fat against Jeffries - not much definition to his abs. I think his best weight was around 195 at the time he fought Burns. In old photos from that fight, he looked in great shape.

(Of course, appearance are deceiving. Jeffries looked ripped against Johnson, and look what happened.)

Jim Jeffries being introduced before the Johnson fight:



Another view:



A young Jeffries:

[Ambling Alp]

Cooney didn't have a very weak chin. If he did, he certainly wouldn't have lasted until the 13th round against Holmes. You have to have atleast a decent chin to do that. Not to mention that it was a competitive fight.

Cooney was stopped 3 times in his career: by Holmes, Spinks and Foreman. He certainly didn't have an iron chin, but to say he had a weak chin is a big exaggeration.

The guys that Holmes fought certainly had their weaknesses of the guys, but overall they were better. If you are going to rip Cooney, then you have to consider:

-Lou Nova was stopped 6 times.
-Tommy Farr was stopped 5 times and lost 30 fights. Should have been able to beat a washed up Jimmy Braddock easily but he couldn't.
-Tony Galento was stopped 6 times.
-Even Buddy Baer got stopped by the legendary Gunner Barlund.

It's not like Spinks ko's Cooney with one punch. Spinks hit him with multiple punches him with everything he had. Even at 175, Spinks was a much harder puncher than Billy Conn was. At a solid 208, he had decent power.

There is no way that Cooney would have been knocked out by Billy Conn like Pastor was.
That Louis was the only other heavyweight during the era that knocked out Pastor is yet one more indication of how bad the heavyweight division was at the time.

Great job there perusing boxrec, and completly dismissing the actual context of the fights with which you speak (even boxrec itself would tell you, that 2 of Nova's 6 stoppages were on cuts and the Galento KO loss was from a thumb to the eye, or that a majority of Farr's losses came when he was still a teenager)

I was just doing what you are doing with Cooney and other Holmes opponents.
Of course some of Farr's losses aren't that embarrassing. (However, some are legitimate). However, there is no more evidence of Cooney having a weak chin as Farr having one. There is more evidence that Cooney has a better chin than Pastor, and atleast as good of a chin as Nova and Galento.
Cooney had much more power than any of these guys.

Nova's cut losses aren't indications of a weak chin, however they are still losses where he couldn't go the distance.
Don't want to the loss to Galento fine? Fine. Nova only got stopped 5 times instead of 6. However, then you have to take away what is by far the best stoppage win of Galento's career.
Whcih doesn't leave Galento with much.

No way in the world would Cooney (or Smith or Witherspoon or Berbick, or Weaver or Shavers)have been knocked out by Billy Conn.

[raylawpc]

Comparing fighters from different eras is hard. The point is that Holmes and Louis both fought in relatively weak heavyweight eras. When considering each man's overall greatness, that's a strike against them.

Yet, to their credit, each one of them fought the best contenders available. I don't recall anybody ever saying that Holmes or Louis ducked anybody.

[Ambling Alp]

No, you don't often hear that either Holmes or Louis ducked anyone.
However, if you go back on past threads on this Forum you will find people on this Forum say that they did.

Usually with Louis, it's that he should have defended the title against Elmer Ray, Turkey Thompson and Jimmy Bivins.

Usually with Holmes it's that he should have fought Greg Page, Michael Dokes, and Pinklon Thomas. Occasionally someone will mention Coetzee.

[raylawpc]

A fellow named hawk5ins who frequents another boxing forum made the following post regarding allegations that Holmes ducked the fighters you named. Hawk5ins has extensively studied Holmes career, and I think his observations are quite informative:

"After finishing off Cooney, it was universally recognized that he had cleaned out the entire division. Berbick beating Page on the undercard showed at that point, his deserved ness.

Page did then beat Renaldo Snipes and for about a 6 month window, had a legitimate beef about demanding a title shot. Holmes was in a tiff at the time with King who wasn't willing to pay him a deserving purse for the bout so Larry made MORE money by taking on Scott and Frazier (after 1982 and then taking on a stiff chellenge in Witherspoon, Holmes deserved a few soft touches.)

Then King made a power play agianst Holmes with the WBC and Holmes told The WBC and King to Flock off. It should also be noted that Holmes was scheduled to face WBA champ in 1984 in a bout that was cancelled due to the promoter scrapping it over money (he didn't have any).

Page showed how truly worthy he was of a shot at Holmes by showing up overweight for his next two bouts and losing back to back dukes to Witherspoon (a bit flabby himself) and Bey (a whale).

Who else did Holmes Duck? Well Pinklon Thomas called out Holmes pretty loudly in 84 and 85. But let's remember Holmes had a scheduled bout with John Tate that fell apart due to an injury by Tate and then the Coetzee bout that dried up. So Holmes finally got a bout under his belt when he faced Bonecrusher. Larry did get cut (butt) and lost maybe two rounds total (took a pretty nice shot that rocked him good). 85' Holmes took out Bey who many experts were predicting to beat Holmes. And then Holmes had a C-hair close bout with Carl Williams. Had Holmes by a point.

Holmes then took on a big money (seemingly) low risk bout with Spinks. Holmes got out hustled and lost his belt. So just when Pinklon Thoms could now show the world that he CLEARLY was the best heavyweight in the world, what happens? He loses to Trevor Berbick. Boy he showed us.

Griping about Page and Thomas at the end of Holmes Prime (and IMO only Thomas had a truly legitimate gripe) to me is nitpicking at best.

At the PEAK prime of his game, he CLEANED out the division. When he beat Cooney, who was considered the most dangerous fighter in the game due to his power, he also held a win over the WBA champ Weaver and of course Page lost to Berbick on the undercard who Holmes also beat.

If Larry was at the top of his game and was only taking on soft touches, You might have a point. But this is baseless. Whining about who Holmes didn't face at the tail end of his 7 and a half year reign is a bit weak imo."

I hope I haven't caused any copyright problems. I don't think hawk5ins would mind me posting this.