No love for Sugar Ray Leonard..

[Robinson]

I am curious why is their alot of hate for Ray ?

I am interested to know what peoples dislikes of this man is.

Thanks again

Kym

[Diamond WEAPON]

Because he was great and flashy. He had style and substance. He was also a bit of a pretty boy, and many males (fight fans or otherwise) simply don't like the idea of somebody who can attract more women with their looks AND kick their ass too. That's much of my theory anyway, along with the fact that he beat 3 of the most feared fighters/brawlers/punchers ever in Duran, Hearns, and Hagler, who I would imagine more hardcore fans cling to because they were simply tough fighters and that was it, they didn't have movie star looks or especially flashy styles.

[Seamus]

Well said Diamond Weapon. I've never understood the "Real fight fans are for Duran" or Hagler, Hearns etc angle.

[raylawpc]

"You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time." - Abraham Lincoln

[HomicideHenry]

Its because of his premadona attitude, and that he was getting his way all of the time, all the way to the end. Where else in history can you name where two titles were on the line at the same time (Leonard-Lalonde)? Where else in history can you see where a fighter been gone for years and automatically get a title shot (Leonard-Hagler, Leonard-Norris, Leonard-Camacho)?

Throw in controversial decisions over Tommy Hearns (remember the draw?), and some other character flaws in there...

You can see why, least from my eyes anyways.

[elmersalsa]

In my opinion, Leonard was great from 1979-82 time frame...After that, he was never the same guy.

One of the things that people did not like him was that when he loses, he used to get all the privileges to get a rematch...When he wins, the rematch with the other guy was NOT IN SIGHT.

He never gave Duran a rematch
He never gave Hearns a rematch

That is sad for a great fighter of his caliber that could have been greater fighter if he would have fought those same guys again.

Also many people rate him way too high in the all-time pound per pound or all time welterweight greats in the rankings. He DID NOT HAD ENOUGH FIGHTS to be considered above like guys like Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles or Tony Canzoneri for example for the p4p ratings and DID NOT STAY TOO LONG at welterweight to be viewed at least with the top 3 welter greats.

Watch out for some of his fans...I could see some big hefty replies if you talk BAD about him. Well, he is just like any boxer hated or loved. I loved him...He was one of my favorites.

[HomicideHenry]

He never gave Duran a rematch

When was this? He fought Duran three times? Please clarify.

[dr_devious]

Its the second half of his career that bugged me, it stank. Waiting for Hagler to become badly faded before he fought him and stole a decision, then not giving him a re-match. The even bigger steal against Tommy Hearns in the re-match, getting the club fighter Donny Lalonde to boil down to 12 stone to defend a LH belt, and he was always demanding the size of ring he wanted to fight him etc...............the dice were always loaded in his favour. I think that was pi$$es fight fans off more than anything. His accomplishments in the first half of his career were truly great though

[Borinken25]

Leonard has wins over Benitez, Duran, Hagler (controversial), and Hearns. The absolute best of his generation. It does not matter how many fights he did. He was quality wins over quantity wins and I rank him high on the p4p list. He never gave rematches but he fought Duran three times and he gave a rematch to Duran after Duran was coming from a huge win against Barkley. And he fought Hearns twice.

[allworld80]

He never gave Duran a rematch
He never gave Hearns a rematch

He gave them both rematches.

[dr_devious]

Hearns and Duran were shells of their former selves when Leonard gave them re-matches

[allworld80]

Hearns and Duran were shells of their former selves when Leonard gave them re-matches

Ray himself says Hearns won their rematch, despite the draw given by the judges. That's not a bad shell.

[giacomino]

I think it was because Leonard became a pop star of sorts, much bigger than boxing itself. He was a slick salesman, and the product he was selling was himself. While Hagler and Hearns talked liked fighters, occasionally mangling the English language, and Duran spoke only Spanish in interviews, Leonard came across as thoughtful and almost professorial, but also fake at times. Real fight fans knew the worth of Hagler, Hearns and Duran, but non-sports fans only saw and heard of Leonard. He commanded the big money, and he helped make Hagler, Hearns and Duran at least temporarily rich.

Also, the Leonard who easily beat several top welterweights on the way up, who KO'd a prime Benitez, who lost worse than the final scorecards to Duran but won his revenge, the one who KO'd Kalule and who came back to KO Hearns in a classic fight, was a truly great fighter.
The one who many think got a gift against Hagler, who clearly lost to Hearns but got yet another gift, who KO'd a mediocre Lalonde and decisioned a suddenly stale, 38-year-old Duran, was more a media superstar than an overwhelming fight talent.
Would be interesting to know if more of the Leonard hate came from that latter era.

[Robinson]

So when Leonard fought Hearns (1989) and Hagler (1987) Leonard was in his peak ???

As for never rematching Duran....I dont even know how to reply to that..this website has
the best records of fighters careers at the click of a finger...how lazy must one be to
not check a mans record before criticising him.

He waited for these guys to fade, while himself was still at his peak???

What other champions went straight to a title fight after a long lay off....James J Jeffries ?

If its any consolation..as for Leonard being a 'good looker' my GF hates him. Not nearly as much
as she does Ali...but she disagress that he is good looking.

Me personally...I think he is such a dream boat !!!

[ringsider]

Hearns and Duran were shells of their former selves when Leonard gave them re-matches

And Leonard wasn't?

[Elton John]

I am curious why is their alot of hate for Ray ?

I am interested to know what peoples dislikes of this man is.

Thanks again

Kym

Well, it's because the man was a fraud like his various retirements. This ludicrous idea that his retirement was forced when he came out whenever he so choosed to.

A forced retirement is having your license revoked (Ali) or physical imprisonment (Tony Ayala, Tyson, Carter), death (Sal Sanchez)

This excuse for leonard shows what his fans will do to embellish his reuptation or save face.

His reputaion itself is far overrated. he was outhustled by a lightweight in his late 20's, outsped and outclassed by a 3-1 underdog. Outboxed by Hearns for most of the 14 rounds. Dropped or staggered by various clubfighters even at a young age and the only time he ever looks good is with old, burnt out fighters. He's just plain overrated.

[Elton John]

I think it was because Leonard became a pop star of sorts, much bigger than boxing itself. He was a slick salesman, and the product he was selling was himself. While Hagler and Hearns talked liked fighters, occasionally mangling the English language, and Duran spoke only Spanish in interviews, Leonard came across as thoughtful and almost professorial, but also fake at times. Real fight fans knew the worth of Hagler, Hearns and Duran, but non-sports fans only saw and heard of Leonard. He commanded the big money, and he helped make Hagler, Hearns and Duran at least temporarily rich.

Also, the Leonard who easily beat several top welterweights on the way up, who KO'd a prime Benitez, who lost worse than the final scorecards to Duran but won his revenge, the one who KO'd Kalule and who came back to KO Hearns in a classic fight, was a truly great fighter.
The one who many think got a gift against Hagler, who clearly lost to Hearns but got yet another gift, who KO'd a mediocre Lalonde and decisioned a suddenly stale, 38-year-old Duran, was more a media superstar than an overwhelming fight talent.
Would be interesting to know if more of the Leonard hate came from that latter era.

The signs came many years before that. Leonard started talking big that he wanted Hagler during the commentaries on HBO but the lying chickenshit got himself a case of cold feet after witnessing the slaughter so he changes his tune saying he wants hagler to handicap himself by sweating down to 154 the way he had Lalonde do 7 years later. When that didnt work he held out until Hagler was your basic piece of crap ready for retirement. Meanwhile, several attempts by hagler and the Petronelli's to lure Leoanrd into a match failed. Marvin would often try to persuade him in the most unthreatening way almost assuring him that he wasn't going to hurt him but Ray just didn't have the heart to go thru with it back then.

He did get brave once after witnessing Duran take Hagler the 15 and Marvin faling to hurt Duran. Naturally, Ray thought he could do better than Duran as was the case in the Camacho fight. This prompted leonard to take his first fight out from 'retirement' only to have his confidence and pride shot down. So back to the drawing board-another 3 years wait and the first signs true deterioration and like the vulture he was, came back to feed off the scraps.

I don't recall other welters-Napoles, Griffith, Robinson having this much trouble summoning the nerve to take fights with middleweights.

leonard also failed any attempts to defend his title out of fear he'd get shown up by the first hot young middleweight aiming to make a name for himself (Nunn)

[Broncano]

Hearns and Duran were shells of their former selves when Leonard gave them re-matches

And Leonard wasn't?

I personally deem Leonard-Duran III and Leonard-Hearns II as completely irrelevant... just another statistic.
As a matter of fact, for all the countless hours of boxing that I've watched (live and taped) I don't think I've ever watched those fights again since they took place.

For me, that era came to an end when Hagler beat Hearns in 85. There were a few last sparks towards the end of the decade (Duran -Barkley, Hearns winning titles in 4 divisions, maybe even SRL-Hagler) but for all intents and purposes I think the great rivalries of the 147 to 160 lbs where long gone when Leonard fought those rematches. \

[Robinson]

You may consider those bouts as a matter of a statistic...but I am sure the principles that trained
hard and took them shots did not.

[ringsider]

blah,blah,blah..... Meanwhile, several attempts by hagler and the Petronelli's to lure Leonard into a match failed. Marvin would often try to persuade him in the most unthreatening way almost assuring him that he wasn't going to hurt him but Ray just didn't have the heart to go thru with it back then.

Yeh what a guy Hagler was.....wanting a WW to come up and challenge him for his MW crown.......talk about what a pansy Hagler was....picking on smaller men to try and justify his medicore skills and MW title reign. You guys and your logic are unbelievable.......and as trainers/managers the Petronelli's stunk. They deserve more blame for Hagler getting beat by Leonard than Hagler. Couple of dopes.....

[Elton John]

blah,blah,blah..... wanting a WW to come up and challenge him for his MW crown.......talk about what a pansy Hagler was....picking on smaller men to try and justify his medicore skills and MW title reign. blah, blah, blah.....

If not for smaller men moving up to challenge the bigger man, we would not be priviledged to such masterpieces as Duran-Leonard 1 where the older, smaller man with the shorter armed Duran turned Leonard's legs and heart into jelly, outwork the mediocre welterweight and then go on to take his title in a cakewalk.

By the way I recently read about Leonard's comments he gave to Randy Gordon in an interview leading up to the fight:

Before I could get any words out, Leonard said, "I'm glad you're here. I don't know if you heard, but I'm gonna' be fighting Roberto Duran in June. What do you think of the fight?"

What do I think of the fight? Hmm. Why would he be asking me that question? Through the remainder of the day, I found out why. For the first time in his career, Leonard was not totally sure of himself. He had questions about his ability, his toughness, his speed, his stamina and his chin.

"Do you think he can hurt me?" "Can I take him out?" "How would you rate his power as a welterweight?" "Did he hurt Carlos Palomino?" "Do you think I'm that much faster than him?"

Those were some of the questions Leonard threw at me during every lengthy break we took. His confidence, normally sky high, was missing."

This guy has a track record for avoiding serious opposition-healthy opposition. This is the same article that reveals Leonard wouldn't even consider rematch until the mention of a 40 + pounds overweight Duran was brought up:

"Through July, Leonard sulked and brooded. Duran ate and partied. It was at the end of July that I was invited to a party Duran was throwing in a New York City restaurant. When I saw the newly crowned, still-celebrating welterweight king, my mouth dropped open in surprise. The legendary 135-pound terror, who was now atop the world's 147-pounders, weighed no less than 165 pounds. The dedication he had shown in training for Leonard had been replaced by an insatiable appetite for fast days, even faster nights and women who were even faster than that. Duran was showing himself to be a man of extremes: When he trained, he trained with everything inside of himself. When he partied, he partied until he dropped.

With every pound he added to his frame, a new entourage member --a new hanger-on, a new leech -- appeared. Each one had less to offer Duran than the previous bloodsucker. When he partied, they partied. When he sang, they burst into wild applause. When he danced, the encircled him and shouted encouragement. When he raised his glass, they toasted him and his reign. And when he showed signs of heading back to the gym, the showed him his way back to the dance floor of his very next party.

In August, Janks Morton called Leonard and told him to get back to the gym. He told
Leonard that Duran was blowing up like a balloon. Morton recalls telling Leonard, "Listen, this guy (Duran) is getting fat. I'm told he's around 180 and climbing. Why don't we get back in the gym for a few weeks and begin thinking about Duran again. You can meet him again this year and we both know you can beat him, even on his best day. We'll see just how soon the fight can be made. How 'bout it?"

Leonard, a fierce competitor, had heard all he had to hear. His month of sulking and depression had come to an end.

"Let's go to work," Leonard said. "I've got a score to settle with Duran."

When Leonard returned to the gym, included was the missing ingredient from his loss to Duran eight weeks earlier -- confidence. The loss had told Leonard everything he had to know, both about himself and about Duran, the only man he ever completed 15 rounds against.

As Leonard trained, Duran continued to party. By the time promoter Don King notified Duran in early September that a rematch was in the making, Duran's weight was close to 190 pounds. A press conference in late September -- to announce a November 25 date for the rematch -- showed Leonard to be at or very near the welterweight limit of 147 pounds, and Duran to be bloated, puffy and sadly out of shape. Duran looked less like his nickname of "Manos de Piedra" than he did like "Rollo de Manteca" -- "Rolls of Fat."

As Morton had hoped, Duran didn't open training camp until early October. In some seven weeks time, Duran would have to pull off weight as no champion has ever had to do in so short a time. Nearly one pound per day would have to be shed by Duran in order to make the division limit of 147 pounds.
"Fierce competitor" my eye. A fierce competitor would have demanded an immediate rematch instead of waiting to be told how hopelessly out of condition his opponent was.

[bjermaine]

even granberry rolls his eyes when he reads elton's crap.

[Elton John]

even granberry rolls his eyes when he reads elton's crap.

Suppose you let Granberry speak for himself devisive one. And what 'crap' would you be referring to?

This is the typical response I have come to expect from Ray leonard fans. I put up a quote accessible to the public and the first thing they do is without specifying what part they dissagree with, dismiss it as crap and giving the impression the entire post is just my opinion. Well then if you are so confident then back up your statement; What part of it is crap?

[ringsider]

blah,blah,blah..... wanting a WW to come up and challenge him for his MW crown.......talk about what a pansy Hagler was....picking on smaller men to try and justify his medicore skills and MW title reign. blah, blah, blah.....

If not for smaller men moving up to challenge the bigger man, we would not be priviledged to such masterpieces as Duran-Leonard 1 where the older, smaller man with the shorter armed Duran turned Leonard's legs and heart into jelly, outwork the mediocre welterweight and then go on to take his title in a cakewalk.

By the way I recently read about Leonard's comments he gave to Randy Gordon in an interview leading up to the fight:

Before I could get any words out, Leonard said, "I'm glad you're here. I don't know if you heard, but I'm gonna' be fighting Roberto Duran in June. What do you think of the fight?"

What do I think of the fight? Hmm. Why would he be asking me that question? Through the remainder of the day, I found out why. For the first time in his career, Leonard was not totally sure of himself. He had questions about his ability, his toughness, his speed, his stamina and his chin.

"Do you think he can hurt me?" "Can I take him out?" "How would you rate his power as a welterweight?" "Did he hurt Carlos Palomino?" "Do you think I'm that much faster than him?"

Those were some of the questions Leonard threw at me during every lengthy break we took. His confidence, normally sky high, was missing."

This guy has a track record for avoiding serious opposition-healthy opposition. This is the same article that reveals Leonard wouldn't even consider rematch until the mention of a 40 + pounds overweight Duran was brought up:

"Through July, Leonard sulked and brooded. Duran ate and partied. It was at the end of July that I was invited to a party Duran was throwing in a New York City restaurant. When I saw the newly crowned, still-celebrating welterweight king, my mouth dropped open in surprise. The legendary 135-pound terror, who was now atop the world's 147-pounders, weighed no less than 165 pounds. The dedication he had shown in training for Leonard had been replaced by an insatiable appetite for fast days, even faster nights and women who were even faster than that. Duran was showing himself to be a man of extremes: When he trained, he trained with everything inside of himself. When he partied, he partied until he dropped.

With every pound he added to his frame, a new entourage member --a new hanger-on, a new leech -- appeared. Each one had less to offer Duran than the previous bloodsucker. When he partied, they partied. When he sang, they burst into wild applause. When he danced, the encircled him and shouted encouragement. When he raised his glass, they toasted him and his reign. And when he showed signs of heading back to the gym, the showed him his way back to the dance floor of his very next party.

In August, Janks Morton called Leonard and told him to get back to the gym. He told
Leonard that Duran was blowing up like a balloon. Morton recalls telling Leonard, "Listen, this guy (Duran) is getting fat. I'm told he's around 180 and climbing. Why don't we get back in the gym for a few weeks and begin thinking about Duran again. You can meet him again this year and we both know you can beat him, even on his best day. We'll see just how soon the fight can be made. How 'bout it?"

Leonard, a fierce competitor, had heard all he had to hear. His month of sulking and depression had come to an end.

"Let's go to work," Leonard said. "I've got a score to settle with Duran."

When Leonard returned to the gym, included was the missing ingredient from his loss to Duran eight weeks earlier -- confidence. The loss had told Leonard everything he had to know, both about himself and about Duran, the only man he ever completed 15 rounds against.

As Leonard trained, Duran continued to party. By the time promoter Don King notified Duran in early September that a rematch was in the making, Duran's weight was close to 190 pounds. A press conference in late September -- to announce a November 25 date for the rematch -- showed Leonard to be at or very near the welterweight limit of 147 pounds, and Duran to be bloated, puffy and sadly out of shape. Duran looked less like his nickname of "Manos de Piedra" than he did like "Rollo de Manteca" -- "Rolls of Fat."

As Morton had hoped, Duran didn't open training camp until early October. In some seven weeks time, Duran would have to pull off weight as no champion has ever had to do in so short a time. Nearly one pound per day would have to be shed by Duran in order to make the division limit of 147 pounds.
"Fierce competitor" my eye. A fierce competitor would have demanded an immediate rematch instead of waiting to be told how hopelessly out of condition his opponent was.

All of that blather means nothing.......of course you will never get it.

[observer1]

He never gave Duran a rematch

When was this? He fought Duran three times? Please clarify.

elmersalsa, Care to Respond?? He just Owned you there..