No love for Sugar Ray Leonard..

[Counter-puncher]

Elton John has his own ideas however :)

I know read his shit.....now he is trying to say that Hagler lost his speed......fvck, Hagler never had any speed.

And Leonard? Sure he looked impressive against the Dave Greens of the world, the Ranzany's the Muniz' the Chiaverinis not to mention the relics of the late 80s he didnt have the nerve to face earlier but put him in with Norris and proves every time he really cant do much of anything except cover on the ropes (his natural pose in defeat)

Speaking of not doing much, he wasn't exactly putting on a clinic in the hearns fight either

I trust my meaning is clear! :P

absolutely your meaning is clear. you're prepared to judge leonard on how he looked against Terry Norris. could you remind me how old leonard was by then please, I am not too good with the old memory. my point is thats hardly a peak leonard you are saying is 'covering on the ropes' against norris. which suggests to me you're a leonard-hater no matter which way you try to paint it. its not an accusation, I hate him too, i shouted at the TV for 12 whole rounds for marvin to knock his head off. its just that i am honest about it, plus I try to judge him at or somewhere near his best not washed out and about 34 and with a detached retina.

strikes me as the same kind of thing as if I was judging Duran by his performance against- say- Kirkland Laing, or benitez. Duran looked horrible in those fights. so what? do we deny any of hs legacy because of that?

by the way with this talk of a rematch being pushed too fast: 5 months later is too fast? to whoever said it how long do you think is needed between fights exactly? would leonard have been playing fair to give duran a year or maybe even two? oh i get it its the 'despicable ray leonard always stacked the dice in his favour' line.

[Borinken25]

Excuses, excuses, and more excuses.

Let look at this in detail. Duran lost because he was past his prime, he was out shape, he had to lose 40 pounds, he did not look sharp, he was not motivated, he was not himself that night, he had stomach cramps, he had to go to the bathroom, he looked like pussycat, he forgot to go to the bathroom before the fight, he was sick, he was over trained, he was under trained, he was slow, disoriented and probably overwhelmed even before the fight, and on and on and on and on… Can we pile any more excuses.

Leonard was the better man and he clearly won and made Duran quit, those are the real facts. Anything else is an excuse to justify Duran quitting and to denigrate Leonard win.

[elmersalsa]

Big fights like the Brawl in Montreal, the aftermath and all should have a rematch. But I have never seen a rematch programmed SO FAST in the history of the sport. Duran did not even made a first title defense against at least a TOMATO CAN or enjoyed his title.

Which says how FISHY the events were. Duran ballooned more than 200 pounds. It was Duran's FAULT that he did not took care of himself well, but it is very HARD FOR ANY FIGHTER not to celebrate like that after an emotional win. It was THE BIGGEST AND GREATEST WIN of Duran's career. No doubt about that.

Maybe he lost the HUNGER to prove that he was the better fighter. He proved it once, and when the offer for the rematch came, ANY FIGHTER WOULD HAVE TAKE THAT OFFER, especially if you were poor most of your life, and from Latin America, that a fighter seldom see that kind of $$$$$$$$$ figures.

Leonard was not only a GOOD STRATEGIST INSIDE OF THE RING...HE WAS A VERY GREAT ONE OUTSIDE OF IT.


Would Leonard beat a Duran with great preparation for the rematch? No doubt about that
Would Leonard LOSE to a Duran with great preparaton for the rematch? No doubt about that, either.

But THINGS WENT TOO FAST....I have never seen that before. We could go to the boxing books to see what rematch was as fast as this one after A GREAT FIGHT between two all-time greats.

[elmersalsa]

Excuses, excuses, and more excuses.

Let look at this in detail. Duran lost because he was past his prime, he was out shape, he had to lose 40 pounds, he did not look sharp, he was not motivated, he was not himself that night, he had stomach cramps, he had to go to the bathroom, he looked like pussycat, he forgot to go to the bathroom before the fight, he was sick, he was over trained, he was under trained, he was slow, disoriented and probably overwhelmed even before the fight, and on and on and on and on… Can we pile any more excuses.

Leonard was the better man and he clearly won and made Duran quit, those are the real facts. Anything else is an excuse to justify Duran quitting and to denigrate Leonard win.

Why we have to accept the EXCUSES that Sugar Ray Leonard did not fight his fight in Montreal?

Why we have to accept that Leonard was "better" when in the first fight, when BOTH WERE IN THEIR PRIMES, AT THEIR VERY BEST, AND BOTH TRAINED MAGNIFICENTLY FOR THE FIGHT, Duran won?

Why cannot you ACCEPT that Duran outboxed him?

Why cannot you ACCEPT that Duran in fight 1 and fight 2 were two different fighters?

Why cannot you ACCEPT Duran's victory as a great win for you, since you "claimed" that you are one of Duran's fans, which to me, IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE...I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE A DURAN HATER, ADMIT IT...I KNOW WHY. YOU AND I KNOW WHY.

Tell me a REMATCH that was so programmed SO QUICKLY after a MEGA FIGHT like the "Brawl in Montreal"? Why cannot you ACCEPT that the fight was TOO SOON?

[Borinken25]

Excuses, excuses, and more excuses.

Let look at this in detail. Duran lost because he was past his prime, he was out shape, he had to lose 40 pounds, he did not look sharp, he was not motivated, he was not himself that night, he had stomach cramps, he had to go to the bathroom, he looked like pussycat, he forgot to go to the bathroom before the fight, he was sick, he was over trained, he was under trained, he was slow, disoriented and probably overwhelmed even before the fight, and on and on and on and on… Can we pile any more excuses.

Leonard was the better man and he clearly won and made Duran quit, those are the real facts. Anything else is an excuse to justify Duran quitting and to denigrate Leonard win.

Ok let me add some more excuses

The rematch was programmed too fast, Duran did not have time to enjoy his greatest win, it was fishy, he ballooned to more than 200 pounds, Duran did not take care of himself, Duran was too emotional for the fight, Duran lost his hunger but yet he ballooned to more than 200 pounds , Duran was poor, and things went too fast. Any more?

[Borinken25]

Excuses, excuses, and more excuses.

Let look at this in detail. Duran lost because he was past his prime, he was out shape, he had to lose 40 pounds, he did not look sharp, he was not motivated, he was not himself that night, he had stomach cramps, he had to go to the bathroom, he looked like pussycat, he forgot to go to the bathroom before the fight, he was sick, he was over trained, he was under trained, he was slow, disoriented and probably overwhelmed even before the fight, and on and on and on and on… Can we pile any more excuses.

Leonard was the better man and he clearly won and made Duran quit, those are the real facts. Anything else is an excuse to justify Duran quitting and to denigrate Leonard win.

Why we have to accept the EXCUSES that Sugar Ray Leonard did not fight his fight in Montreal?

Why we have to accept that Leonard was "better" when in the first fight, when BOTH WERE IN THEIR PRIMES, AT THEIR VERY BEST, AND BOTH TRAINED MAGNIFICENTLY FOR THE FIGHT, Duran won?

Why cannot you ACCEPT that Duran outboxed him?

Why cannot you ACCEPT that Duran in fight 1 and fight 2 were two different fighters?

Why cannot you ACCEPT Duran's victory as a great win for you, since you "claimed" that you are one of Duran's fans, which to me, IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE...I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE A DURAN HATER, ADMIT IT...I KNOW WHY. YOU AND I KNOW WHY.

Tell me a REMATCH that was so programmed SO QUICKLY after a MEGA FIGHT like the "Brawl in Montreal"? Why cannot you ACCEPT that the fight was TOO SOON?

No excuses Duran was the better man in the first fight and no excuses will change that.

On the first fight Duran was prime but a few months later he was out of his prime, correct?

Duran outboxed him on the first fight there is no doubt about that but the fight was still very close. However, the second fight Leonard outboxed Duran and the fight was not even close.

Why do I have to accept that Duran was a different fighter on the second fight? I could use the argument the Leonard was not the same fighter on the first fight.


Duran is and always be one of my favorites, but that does not mean that I’m going to close my eyes and make a million excuses for him losing to Leonard. I’m a bigger fan of Gomez and I have never made any excuses of his loss to Sanchez. Sanchez was the better man and there is nothing that I could do about it. Just like Leonard was better than Duran. And please do not insult my intelligence by calling me a Duran hater that is nonsense and you know it.

[elmersalsa]

Excuses, excuses, and more excuses.

Let look at this in detail. Duran lost because he was past his prime, he was out shape, he had to lose 40 pounds, he did not look sharp, he was not motivated, he was not himself that night, he had stomach cramps, he had to go to the bathroom, he looked like pussycat, he forgot to go to the bathroom before the fight, he was sick, he was over trained, he was under trained, he was slow, disoriented and probably overwhelmed even before the fight, and on and on and on and on… Can we pile any more excuses.

Leonard was the better man and he clearly won and made Duran quit, those are the real facts. Anything else is an excuse to justify Duran quitting and to denigrate Leonard win.

Ok let me add some more excuses

The rematch was programmed too fast, Duran did not have time to enjoy his greatest win, it was fishy, he ballooned to more than 200 pounds, Duran did not take care of himself, Duran was too emotional for the fight, Duran lost his hunger but yet he ballooned to more than 200 pounds , Duran was poor, and things went too fast. Any more?

The thing that IRKS SRL fans is that Duran was the ONLY ONE, THE ONLY ONE, in SRL's career that ever beat him when BOTH WERE AT THEIR VERY BEST AND IN THEIR ABSOLUTE PRIMES. That is something that they will never forget.

WHEN DURAN QUIT, the media, or most of the media, did not give Leonard much credit...They just wanted to know WHY DURAN, WHO FOUGHT MAGNIFICENTLY THE FIRST FIGHT, QUIT THIS TIME AROUND, and still, there are no answers.

I try to find answers myself in why Duran quit. But to come with THE LIES, that this time "Leonard fought his fight", IS MORE LIKE A BAG OF HOGWASH AND BULLSHIT.

I do believe that it was all PREMEDITATED from Leonard to get a rematch as soon as possible. Everybody saw Duran when he ballooned to more than 200 pounds. Everybody that had a TV did.

It was EVIDENT, EVEN IF DURAN WOULD HAVE NOT QUIT and lose anyway, that Leonard was not gonna give him a rubber match.

[Robinson]

On rematches


can I just make a comment please.

When you win a fight, you usually have done the hard work and executed
the game plan right.

When you lose, you know you made mistakes.

When the fighters rematch it is ALOT harder for the victor to see where
they could have improved. The loser usually goes home and works out a new
game and how to adjusts things.

Rematches are generally a hard and dangerous thing at an elite level for
those that have won the first bout.

Some times there is no mystery. Duran was superb in the first fight,
Leonard was not half bad either.

Say whatever you like, but theories aside, Leonard won 2 and Duran won 1.

Kym

[Elton John]

Premeditated Elmer? Why don't you click on the link below and decide for yourself. It is quite a compelling read and surely enough to put any leonard fan in a state of denial.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-a ... s-version/

[Goodnight, Irene]

On rematches


can I just make a comment please.

When you win a fight, you usually have done the hard work and executed
the game plan right.

When you lose, you know you made mistakes.

When the fighters rematch it is ALOT harder for the victor to see where
they could have improved. The loser usually goes home and works out a new
game and how to adjusts things.

Rematches are generally a hard and dangerous thing at an elite level for
those that have won the first bout.

Some times there is no mystery. Duran was superb in the first fight,
Leonard was not half bad either.

Say whatever you like, but theories aside, Leonard won 2 and Duran won 1.

Kym

Yes, & at the end of the day, Holmes won one, & Ali none. Is that the, "bottom line" there, too? What I think you're overlooking is Duran's prime was in another weightclass, in another decade, beginning (his prime, that is) some fifteen-plus years before his last fight with Leonard. Is that not reason enough to moot the third fight?

Leonard was the bigger, fresher, younger man. He just wasn't as good as Duran, pound-for-pound. In the same class? Yes, Leonard was a wonderful fighter, but Duran was the best of the fab four.

[Robinson]

Just giving a perspective through all of the 'theories'.

Seriously it is hard to know how to improve yourself and
adapt when you have already won. Its the loser who
knows what they need to do or how to adapt.

This is by no means an absolute, but it is just a perspective
perhaps some people should take on board.

[watkins]

Sugar Ray had the best sytle and form of a boxer & counter-pucher I've ever seen. A great model for young boxers seeking out a model to learn from!

[raylawpc]

Obviously, you never saw the original Sugar Ray . . .

[elmersalsa]

Premeditated Elmer? Why don't you click on the link below and decide for yourself. It is quite a compelling read and surely enough to put any leonard fan in a state of denial.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-a ... s-version/

I think that Randy Gordon was accurate in his assessments and the behind the scenes before and after the fight.

If Duran would have been Muhammad Ali with the stomach cramps, EVERYBODY IN AMERICA WOULD HAVE BELIEVE HIM, just like the majority of the people "believed" the broken jaw fight with Kent Norton

Thanks for the info Elton

[JC]

Compared to a lot of people on this forum I know shit all, but anyone who doesn't at least respect Ray Leonard doesn't know boxing.

[Robinson]

J-C
Agreed.

[Elton John]

Premeditated Elmer? Why don't you click on the link below and decide for yourself. It is quite a compelling read and surely enough to put any leonard fan in a state of denial.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-a ... s-version/

I think that Randy Gordon was accurate in his assessments and the behind the scenes before and after the fight.

If Duran would have been Muhammad Ali with the stomach cramps, EVERYBODY IN AMERICA WOULD HAVE BELIEVE HIM, just like the majority of the people "believed" the broken jaw fight with Kent Norton

Thanks for the info Elton

It was my pleasure friend!

[ringsider]

It was total BS......

[Elton John]

Again, if anyone with an I.Q over 100 who is also interested:

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-a ... s-version/

[Collins2000]

Compared to a lot of people on this forum I know shit all, but anyone who doesn't at least respect Ray Leonard doesn't know boxing.

Very true. Some people just can't see past their nationalistic or racial bias.

[I Feel Fine]

Its because of his premadona attitude, and that he was getting his way all of the time, all the way to the end. Where else in history can you name where two titles were on the line at the same time (Leonard-Lalonde)? Where else in history can you see where a fighter been gone for years and automatically get a title shot (Leonard-Hagler, Leonard-Norris, Leonard-Camacho)?

Throw in controversial decisions over Tommy Hearns (remember the draw?), and some other character flaws in there...

You can see why, least from my eyes anyways.

Henry Armstrong defended his Lightweight and Welterweight titles in the same fight, and you can name a dozens of fighters who took years off, came back, and got an immediate title shot. Jeffries, for one. And Leonard-Camacho was for a BS belt.

Gifts, character flaws... always the same nonsense with self-righteous boxing fans. Leonard got a gift late in his career and did drugs for a time. So did Louis. So did plenty of other fighters.

[Grimm]

Because he was great and flashy. He had style and substance. He was also a bit of a pretty boy, and many males (fight fans or otherwise) simply don't like the idea of somebody who can attract more women with their looks AND kick their ass too. That's much of my theory anyway, along with the fact that he beat 3 of the most feared fighters/brawlers/punchers ever in Duran, Hearns, and Hagler, who I would imagine more hardcore fans cling to because they were simply tough fighters and that was it, they didn't have movie star looks or especially flashy styles.

So you find ray leonard attractive?....

anyway homicide henry was right on point.

[I Feel Fine]

anyway homicide henry was right on point.

Reasons..?

[Grimm]

anyway homicide henry was right on point.

Reasons..?

sorry no good without quotes. no one knew wtf i was talkin about.

Its because of his premadona attitude, and that he was getting his way all of the time, all the way to the end. Where else in history can you name where two titles were on the line at the same time (Leonard-Lalonde)? Where else in history can you see where a fighter been gone for years and automatically get a title shot (Leonard-Hagler, Leonard-Norris, Leonard-Camacho)?

Throw in controversial decisions over Tommy Hearns (remember the draw?), and some other character flaws in there...

You can see why, least from my eyes anyways.


these are the reasons

this is what i was refering to

[Grimm]

Its because of his premadona attitude, and that he was getting his way all of the time, all the way to the end. Where else in history can you name where two titles were on the line at the same time (Leonard-Lalonde)? Where else in history can you see where a fighter been gone for years and automatically get a title shot (Leonard-Hagler, Leonard-Norris, Leonard-Camacho)?

Throw in controversial decisions over Tommy Hearns (remember the draw?), and some other character flaws in there...

You can see why, least from my eyes anyways.

Henry Armstrong defended his Lightweight and Welterweight titles in the same fight, and you can name a dozens of fighters who took years off, came back, and got an immediate title shot. Jeffries, for one. And Leonard-Camacho was for a BS belt.

Gifts, character flaws... always the same nonsense with self-righteous boxing fans. Leonard got a gift late in his career and did drugs for a time. So did Louis. So did plenty of other fighters.

Comparing what Armstrong did to what Leonard did is preposterous.

Armstrong put two titles on the line and succesfully defended them.

Leonard had the lightheavyweight champion come down almost 10 pounds in weight to supermiddleweight and in the same fight won a vacant supermiddleweight title.

I am a huge Ray Leonard fan but there is no comparison between these two things.