Pavlik V Lockett

[stujones]

I did say the odd uppercut, but its very limited.

I didn't really notice this body shot - I don't think there was any specific moment that turned the second fight. I thought it was a good, but very repititive, fight. The same pattern existed from 2nd bell to last. There were times where I was screaming "to the body" at Pavlik on TV but aside from maybe one or two moments - it was the same all the time... and he isn't the most elusive target.

Of course right now he is better than Lacy.... Lacy is a one dimensional fighter who is now also shot to pieces mentally (aura has gone) and probably physically.

Is he better than a lacy of 2004-2006.... Thats harder to assess. Untill he fights guys lurking around the top 5 more consistently, then we won't really know just his capability. I aint convinced by Taylor, but in two fights - Kelly was well down in fight 1 untill he caught him and the second fight was quite close.

[stujones]

Pavlik made a target of the body in fight one. Landing a decent amount of the shots. I think the body shot hurt Taylor around the tenth/eleventh(?) round of fight II. It took the last two rounds away from him, and the fight also.

My card was slightly different, I did have Pavlik winning quite confortably - but each round was close.

[Wrists]

I wonder Stu - is your underwhelming assessment of Pavlik in readiness for when he gets spanked by Calzaghe then you utilise the opprtunity to bash JC??



Seems to me your getting your argument in early doors so you can turn up 6 months later and state that Pavlik was not worthy for Calzaghe, just like Lacy was one dimensional............. kessley robotic, hopkins too old.............. yada yada yada

8)

Listen Pavlik is a very good fighter and the biggest threat to JC as things stand now fact!

Wrists

[Asterix]

Pavlik can't be another Jeff Lacy because mentally they are Worlds apart. Pavlik won't fall apart. I agree that Pavlik has been quite one dimensional so far, and that's part of the reason I'm a huge fan, because you know you're going to see bombs every time.

[ebeneezer]

Is he better than a lacy of 2004-2006.... Thats harder to assess.

You must be joking.

And he was not well down in the first fight. After the knockdown in round two he worked his way back into it.

[stujones]

I wonder Stu - is your underwhelming assessment of Pavlik in readiness for when he gets spanked by Calzaghe then you utilise the opprtunity to bash JC??



Seems to me your getting your argument in early doors so you can turn up 6 months later and state that Pavlik was not worthy for Calzaghe, just like Lacy was one dimensional............. kessley robotic, hopkins too old.............. yada yada yada

8)

Listen Pavlik is a very good fighter and the biggest threat to JC as things stand now fact!

Wrists

No please check my archive posts on Pavlik vs Taylor 1 - long before any Pavlik vs Joe fight was mooted. I thought Pavlik looked excellent working his way up the rankings, but have to say he looks one dimensional - same old, same old and no I am not that analytical a thinker to say "oh, I'll get me arguement in about 3 years before they fight".

I have NEVER before or since disrespected Kessler..... I think Kessler is a very intelligent, very strong fighter. However, my only criticism on that is I think Kessler should have got a draw vs Joe... ALOT of people scored it 6-5-1 or 7-5. You can check the archives. Yes, I am the only one who scored it 6-6 - but alot scored it close.

But I have the UTMOST respect for Joe for taking on Kessler when he did, I thought Kessler was going to win easy after 4 rounds, when I knew he could take Joe's pressure. He didn't, so well done Joe.

Pavlik is okay, do I think he is the hardest challenge for Joe... Nope, but the fact that I think Joe wipes the floor with Pavlik shows what I think of Joe, inspite of the Hopkins performance.

Personally, I think Bute is all wrong for Joe and is the hardest ask avaliable (but yes, I agree it shouldn't happen because Bute is a no name) but if Dawson fights and beats Tarver - then he is the most worthy opponent - although no necessarily the guy who I think has the biggest chance to beat Joe - but I give him more of a chance than Pavlik.

[stujones]

Is he better than a lacy of 2004-2006.... Thats harder to assess.

You must be joking.

And he was not well down in the first fight. After the knockdown in round two he worked his way back into it.

Nobody knows just how much damage Joe's fist did on Lacy, or was it Lacy being over hyped by fighting passed it guys.

I might be joking, but you will be lying if you didn't think Lacy was impressive in dispatching Reid.... every bit as impressive Pavlik was vs Miranda. You would be lying if you didn't give Lacy a chance vs Joe.

You don't win fighter of the year, against the low calibre of opponents Lacy fought in 2005, if you didn't look the part.

[stujones]

Hatton won it in 2005 as far as I recall.

I know Lacy was in the running, and won "overseas" fighter, by a huge margin, on this forum award.

I doesn't seem like I can win hear, I am the one who is apparently with the "personal" hatred for Joe and apparently only criticising a POSSIBLE future opponent to get my arguement in early.

Yet, when I am championing the form of a fighter that Joe beat decisively, I am still getting criticism... I hope Mr Wrist is taking some note.

[stujones]

We all love ya Stu. I was unsure myself and quickly checked. I guess Kostya Tszyu, despite being shit and 149 years-old and having not fought since the undercard of David-Goliath, was a decent win.

Are you DG in disguise!

[Poncey]

For what it's worth Stu, I sort of agree with you. I think Kelly needs to fight a decent 160 fighter that isn't weight drained (which both Taylor and Miranda were) to truly cement some kind of legacy at the weight. Abraham will go some way to doing that, but I can't see it happening if he's supposed to be fighting Calzaghe at 168 in November. Plus I don't think Abraham is all that anyway.

I had Pavlik v Taylor II 115-113 to Kelly so it was a close fight IMO.

[Counter-puncher]

i'm not convinced by Pavlik's bodypunching he often seems to be open to counters when he goes downstairs

[Counter-puncher]

aye true terry i know i was hesitant to go downstairs for a while (i'm 6'2). generally sign of a true topclass tall fighter if he is willing to go to the body hard and often.

with pav's bodypunching i seem to recall that when Taylor had him all at sea in the first fight it was after he'd countered a pavlik bodyshot, i think with firstly a left hook. he just seems to throw them a little wide and slow. but then he's hardly quicksilver fullstop.

[Autobarn]

For what it's worth Stu, I sort of agree with you. I think Kelly needs to fight a decent 160 fighter that isn't weight drained (which both Taylor and Miranda were) to truly cement some kind of legacy at the weight. Abraham will go some way to doing that, but I can't see it happening if he's supposed to be fighting Calzaghe at 168 in November. Plus I don't think Abraham is all that anyway.

I had Pavlik v Taylor II 115-113 to Kelly so it was a close fight IMO.

I think all the top middles are weight drained. Including Abraham,

http://www.BS.com/?m=show&id=14286 'Arthur Sees Advantage at Catchweight'

He says, "Making 160-pounds is always tough and takes a lot out of you. The rematch (vs Miranda) is at 166-pounds and it's good for me."

It's possible that I'm seeing too much in it. But Abraham may be understating things, because he has a very low workrate at middleweight.

I can't see Pavlik making 160 too many more times either. I give him credit for knocking out fellow drained middles Taylor & Miranda, taking their bombs and stopping them.

[Counter-puncher]

best to get them in there if you've landed a good one to the head I find thats the best way to avoid counters.


think all the top middles are weight drained. Including Abraham,

http://www.BS.com/?m=show&id=14286 'Arthur Sees Advantage at Catchweight'

He says, "Making 160-pounds is always tough and takes a lot out of you. The rematch (vs Miranda) is at 166-pounds and it's good for me."

It's possible that I'm seeing too much in it. But Abraham may be understating things, because he has a very low workrate at middleweight.

good points

[stujones]

For what it's worth Stu, I sort of agree with you. I think Kelly needs to fight a decent 160 fighter that isn't weight drained (which both Taylor and Miranda were) to truly cement some kind of legacy at the weight. Abraham will go some way to doing that, but I can't see it happening if he's supposed to be fighting Calzaghe at 168 in November. Plus I don't think Abraham is all that anyway.

I had Pavlik v Taylor II 115-113 to Kelly so it was a close fight IMO.

Thanks, I think people are forgetting this is his FIRST defence of the Middleweight title... and he's only had 3 fights in world class (and I aint convinced how world class is Miranda - I aint classing Lockett, Zuniga or a 2006 version of McKart as world class).

Ricardo Mayorga was beating Lewis before the fight got called a technical draw, then beat him in the rematch, then he twice beat Forrest (using two different styles). No one really ever thought he was the next Sugar Ray Leonard, or Julio Cesar Chavez - so why isn't a similar view given to Pavlik.

Note: I aint saying anyone here is potraying him as a legend in the making, but he is being potrayed in a lot better light than a prime Mayorga or Lacy - when he hasn't proven exactly his ability yet.

Nobody would dare mention Mayorga vs Hopkins - which in some ways is what Joe vs Pavlik would be. Unless of course Pavlik does cement his claims before they fight.

[Autobarn]

I actually think it's impressive knocking out Miranda and Taylor in successive fights, then in the next fight taking on Taylor, on Taylor's terms (weight, location, all suiting Taylor), and winning.

Taylor seems to have the speed and movement to bother Pavlik. In other words, Pavlik twice beat a man who has the "wrong" style for him, so what he's done is impressive.

When he moves up to super middle, things will be tougher for Pavlik I would think. This is where his defeats will come.

[stujones]

I actually think it's impressive knocking out Miranda and Taylor in successive fights, then in the next fight taking on Taylor, on Taylor's terms (weight, location, all suiting Taylor), and winning.

Taylor seems to have the speed and movement to bother Pavlik. In other words, Pavlik twice beat a man who has the "wrong" style for him, so what he's done is impressive.

When he moves up to super middle, things will be tougher for Pavlik I would think. This is where his defeats will come.

I aint disputing that, but then so was victories over Lewis and Forrest (x 2) very impressive for Mayorga and even, to a much lesser extent, KO victories against Pemberton and Reid good for Lacy.

When both Mayorga and Lacy lost - well alot of people who know their boxing said, well hindsight is great they always looked limited... but the same isn't being said of Pavlik. The fact that Pemberton and Reid did eff all after the Lacy fight has dented Lacy's reputation alot also.

[Autobarn]

Pavlik has decent basics however, and if he concentrates a bit better he should be able to block a lot of shots when he trades punches.

Lacy was always sneering when he fought, as if he was doing it on rage/fear/pure adrenaline. Mayorga was a powerful, wild maniac in there & when he wouldn't change, other people learned to adapt to him.

Kelly seems more level headed and in control of his boxing. That he beat Taylor when he'd not acclimatised to Vegas properly, that he was at Taylor's weight & struggling with his foe's speed/movement, yet kept plugging away, going downstairs and turning things round...

Mayorga and Lacy were classic "on top" fighters and Pavlik's proven he's more than that.

[Old bones Ian]

Come on, he's a big underdog, but i want him to win . Would be great to have a proper Middleweight champion again.
I've had enough of people slagging Gary off just for taking the fight, seems some people just like to moan about anything.

Gary Lockett the new World Middleweight Champion, has a nice ring to it

[Max Molyneux]

Come on Rocket man!

[dondada]

Yes, good luck to the fella!

Pavlik has very good recuperative powers...but you have to remember why we all know that!

[Goz]

I like Pavlik but I usually cheer on a Brit so come on Gazza!

Where would this rank in the history of British shocks on foreign soil?

Would it be better than Honeygan-Curry? I think perhaps because Honeygan was far more highly thought of than Lockett it would be a better acheivement? But then Don Curry was more highly thought of than Pavlik is right now I guess so hmmmm...

[Autobarn]

I hope Gary gives Pavlik a good, hard fight. It's good to see Pavlik respecting his titles by accommodating the mandatory. Kelly could have vacated the WBO title for Lockett vs Paul Smith or some other rubbish.

Lockett has a hittable world champion in front of him, and has solid punching technique so I hope to see him let some big shots off.

Have to admit, I don't really want Gary to win; I like how Pavlik's done it in his career. I just hope Lockett makes it a good night's entertainment & puts up a similar fight to guys like Zuniga and Zertuche. Pavlik has done it as close to the "right way" as there is, beating hard men on the way up, knocking out the top contender and then beating the champ in 2 fights back-to-back.

Pavlik is supposed to be fighting Rubio on September 27. Another decent fight. Rubio has stopped Zertuche and Freddie Cuevas in his last 2 fights. I thought Pavlik was supposed to be fighting more regularly however.

Pavlik-Lockett has some importance politically - it can pave the way for future Warren/Arum collaboration, which has already no doubt given us the forthcoming Arum fights on Setanta (Arum has a good, underrated stable, most of whom I like watching) and could pave the way for Pavlik-Calzaghe.

Have to say, I think I've reached my limit of wanting to watch Joe Calzaghe. Just when you think he could do something brilliant he puts in a totally amateurish performance (Bika, Manfredo, Hopkins). I've really had my fill of that man, his constant whinging that he was ducked in his prime, the slappy hands, the personality that never caught on, etc.

Pavlik's biggest fights won't have to be Calzaghe however: up at 168 there will be the Kessler-Sartison winner, switch hitting US Olympians Andre Ward and Andre Dirrell, and Lucian Bute.

I think Froch made Joe look a proper plonker when ITV phoned Calzaghe up. Calzaghe said things that are always kept for behind the scenes and came across as openly greedy.

[Max Molyneux]

Isn't Rubio a Light Middleweight who was beat By Baysangurov though? His promoter Is sure looking past Lockett who's not a bad fighter. My only problem Is Lockett's record, Pavlik's a little overrated though and Is a future Gatti waiting to happen.

I think Froch made him look a proper plonker when ITV phoned Calzaghe up. Calzaghe said things that are always kept for behind the scenes and came across as openly greedy.

Making him a plonker by asking for a fight? Froch needs more than domestic level fighters to stand a chance at even winning one round.

You talk about Calzaghe's amateurish performances but Pavlik looked that way against Taylor and many fighters, he's mostly a brawler who wins being 6ft 2 and huge for a middle. Calzaghe would slaughter Pavlik, Joe thrives off come forwards fighters.

[Autobarn]

Yes, Rubio dropped Baysangurov then got a proper beating for the remaining 11 rounds. However, Baysangurov is a special talent IMO - a future world champ whether he beats Jamie Moore or loses to him.

Rubio has clawed his way back into contention, however - stopping Zertuche and Cuevas. Though these guys were shopworn, he actually did better than Pavlik & Taylor vs those guys on paper. He's just a decent challenger, like Lockett is, but a bit more proven and a lot more seasoned than Gary. Like Gary he is a former light middle (like Zuniga & Zertuche as well). It seems all middleweights are either weight drained massive guys destined for super middle or former light middles.

Joe's personality has never caught on. Joe got me very excited vs Lacy & Kessler but follow-ups with Bika, Manfredo and Hopkins were all unwatchable. Calzaghe did sound a prat saying, "Well, if the money's there, the money's there. You know. If the money's there, the money's there." It was the perfect moment for Froch to chip in, "The thing is Joe, I'm more interested in the title."

Froch has a great atitude; such a shame about Inkin's double pullout. Carl's personality and his power would have all caught on in a single ITV broadcast. Joe is meant to be furious about the phone episode, and he wouldn't be if he wasn't made to look like a prat (he also managed to look like a proper wally falling over in clinches vs the strong Bika, and simulating anal sex on a bent over Hopkins.)

Max, Pavlik puts proper body weight into his shots and rotates his fist so that his knuckles, not his fingers, land. Joe could have been pulled up for slapping in many fights and if he was, his handspeed wouldn't have been as good. Froch tried to get Inkin for the WBC elim so you can't criticise him for not fighting world class foes.