Fighters Who Had The Other Guy's Number

[dagosd2000]

I'm talking about a great or near great for one reason or another that couldn't get by another fighter that isn't considered as good as the guy he beat. Examples: Fritzie Zivic's 2 wins over Armstrong in title bouts.
Lew Jenkin's 2 wins over Lou Ambers in title bouts.
Lou Nova's 2 wins convincingly over Max Baer
Willie Meehan's 2 wins over Dempsey
Shorty Hogue winning 3 out of 4 against Archie Moore
You contemporary fans give me more names.

[Expug]

You have some real good examples there.
Jenkins really hammerd Ambers a couple times and Fritzie gave Armstrong a helluva time.
I suppose Saddler vs Pep fits the bill.

[dagosd2000]

You have some real good examples there.
Jenkins really hammerd Ambers a couple times and Fritzie gave Armstrong a helluva time.
I suppose Saddler vs Pep fits the bill.

You know when I was a kid growing up in the Italian neighborhood in Chicago all I heard was how Willie Pep beat Sandy Saddler. Those dagos never told me Saddler stopped The Wil' Of The Wisp 3 times.

[muray]

Doug Ratford with two wins over Kid Gavilian

[pete]

I think Armstrong beating the hell out of Ambers twice,regardless of the decisions,softened him up immensely for Jenkins.

[dr_devious]

Iran Barkley had Tommy Hearns number. He wasnt in the same league, but his combination of chin, heart and power enabled him to expose Tommy's frailty at the higher weights and beat him twice.

[mrbassie]

You have some real good examples there.
Jenkins really hammerd Ambers a couple times and Fritzie gave Armstrong a helluva time.
I suppose Saddler vs Pep fits the bill.

You know when I was a kid growing up in the Italian neighborhood in Chicago all I heard was how Willie Pep beat Sandy Saddler. Those dagos never told me Saddler stopped The Wil' Of The Wisp 3 times.

Dago means a spaniard

[Diamond WEAPON]

Vernon Forrest handing Mosley two ass-whoopings I think would qualify as a more recent example.

[dagosd2000]

Shorty Hogue was a great fighter. Archie Moore was a little green, and he was having stomach problems. When Moore was losing to Hogue, it's not like he was beating any other top fighters. Eddie Booker had his number back then, too. Although their first two fights were even in rounds and scored draws, they would both be wins for Booker using modern scoring. And in their third bout, Booker knocked him the fuck out and put him in the hospital. Moore would have been in the hospital for weeks if Eddie Booker hadn't heard that he wasn't getting a blood transfusion because he was black, and donated blood to Moore himself (they were the same blood type). Charley Burley sure as hell had his number back then, as well.

Basically, Moore was so poor that he didn't have time to train. He often had to work, just as Burley, Booker, Hogue and Booker did.

I talked to Moore about his last fight with Shorty. Moore was supposed to fight his brother Big Boy Hogue. He didn't pass his physical. The fight was in the old ball park Lane Field. Shorty was sitting ringside and offered to replace his brother. Archie KO'd him in two.

[JAHamilton77]

Did Harada have Jofre's #? If not what did he do to get over the hump that other boxers didnt, or was he just the best guy on Jofre's resume.

I honestly dont know much about either man, so I am just asking.

[dagosd2000]

I think Armstrong beating the hell out of Ambers twice,regardless of the decisions,softened him up immensely for Jenkins.

You're right. Those two fights took their toll on both boys.

[dagosd2000]

Did Harada have Jofre's #? If not what did he do to get over the hump that other boxers didnt, or was he just the best guy on Jofre's resume.

I honestly dont know much about either man, so I am just asking.

Harada was a little too fast for Jofre. It was the only way he could survive. They weren't great fights. Some people had Jofre winning the second fight. Both fights were in Japan. Jofre was starting to get stale by the time he fought Harada. Between the Harada fights he fought a draw with with a journeynan fighter:Manny Elias.

He made a remarkable comeback winning a part of the featherweight title.

[elmersalsa]

Ike Williams always whupped Beau Jack.
Ezzard Charles always whupped Archie Moore and Joey Maxim
Terry McGovern could never whip Young Corbett
Regardless of primes, Ali would have always beat Sonny Liston
Vicente Saldivar always beats Howard Winstone
Joe Brown would always do the same to Wallace "Bud" Smith

Sammy Angott over Bob Montgomery....Were there robberies or Angott simply whupped him?



I guess you some fighters cannot beat others no matter what.

[dagosd2000]

Olivares had Bobby Chacon's number

[dempseyfire]

Foreman-Frazier

Klitschko-Byrd

Arguello-Pryor

Robinson-Lamotta (what was it . . .6 out of 7?)

Dempsey-Tunney

Robinson-Gatti

[Ezzard]

Colin Jones - Kirkland Laing

[Borinken25]

Thomas Hearns would’ve KO Duran at any weight class and at any time. Hearns did have Duran’s number.

[elmersalsa]

Thomas Hearns would’ve KO Duran at any weight class and at any time. Hearns did have Duran’s number.

He could not beat Sugar Ray at welterweight, how he's gonna beat Duran?

[My2Sense]

Sammy Angott - Bob Montgomery
Paddy DeMarco - Sandy Saddler
Archie Moore - Harold Johnson
Frankie Randall - JC Chavez
Jr. Jones & Pacquiao- Barrera
Vince Phillips - Tszyu
Glen Johnson - Roy Jones
Winky Wright - Tito

[Robinson]

Liston had Pattersons.

I think Hearns would have been a terror for Duran again
if they fought wherever.

I just dont think Duran could adjust to Hearns.

Though perhaps Duran had cramps or something leading up to tha fight

[granberry]

Good idea for a thread, dagos.

Ray Robinson--Bobo Olson

Jack Delaney--Tiger Flowers

Jose Becerra--Alphonse Halimi

Frank Erne--Kid Lavigne

George Gardner--Jack Root

Jimmy Young--Ron Lyle

Gene Fullmer-Carmen Basilio

Joe Gans--Mike Twin Sullivan

Dwight Braxton--Matt Franklin

Ike Williams--Beau Jack

Tony Zale--Al Hostak

Sonny Liston--Floyd Patterson

Jimmy Young--Ali

Ken Norton--Ali

Tiger Jones--Ray Robinson (even though they only had one fight)

Sonny Liston--Cleveland Williams

Virgil Akins--Tony DeMarco

Carlos Monzon--Nino Benvenuti

Hilmer Kenty--Ernesto Espana

Ceferino Garcia--Lloyd Marshall

Billy Soose--Ken Overlin

Spider Webb--Rory Calhoun

Jose Napoles--Curtis Cokes
.

[My2Sense]

Tiger Jones--Ray Robinson (even though they only had one fight)

Even though they only fought once, I think it's fair to claim that one guy has another guy's number, if the guy who loses is totally dominated (as Robinson was) and never gives the winner a rematch even though one is readily available (as it was in this case).

IMO, no matter who a fighter is (even one as almighty as Robinson), the burden of proof should always be on the guy who loses to prove it was indeed a "fluke", and not on the guy who wins to prove he can do it again.

[dagosd2000]

Lou Nova beating Max Baer

[raylawpc]

A couple from the Old Timers that immediately came to mind:

Young Corbett over Terry McGovern

Tom Sharkey over Jim Corbett

[My2Sense]

Did Harada have Jofre's #? If not what did he do to get over the hump that other boxers didnt, or was he just the best guy on Jofre's resume.

I've often wondered that myself. A lot of people will argue for the first, but I've often wondered if it isn't really the latter.

Certainly, Harada had quicker hands, better footwork, and even a higher workrate Jofre had trouble making weight for the first fight (he had to shed a few pounds at the weigh in), but he weighed in 2 pounds under the limit for the rematch, which means he certainly didn't struggle for that fight (although I suppose it raises the possibility that he overtrained).

Jofre was one of the top P4P rated fighters in the world going into his fights with Harada, and he won all his fights afterward, and eventually won another title, so you can't say he was "shot" or even much past his prime at the time he fought Harada. Harada had already been a world champion before fighting Jofre, and he would go on to be an accomplished champion at bantamweight (and if not for a bogus decision, he would've won the featherweight title as well). As good as Jofre's competition was, he only fought two Hall of Fame fighters in his career, and the other (Vicente Saldivar) was well past his prime when they fought, so I would say almost certainly that Harada was the best guy Jofre ever fought.

I don't see what disqualifies Harada as simply being a better fighter than Jofre.