Plenty of fighters have stepped up and performed well from domestic level when few would have backed them, many have made a quantum leap to dethrone great champions; Honeyghan etc but I just wondered how many experienced the acidic reality in the way Lockett did last weekend.
I immediatley recalled Williams v Klitschko, Walker stepping up v Karmazin and most violent and sickening of all Pickering v Martinez.
London v Ali is another that comes to mind and of course good ole Howard Clarke's shot at Vargas.
I still think Pickering's was the cruellest exposure to a topdraw fighter I can bring to mind, any advance on that?
Class Gap, British to World
Re: Class Gap, British to World
It's about levels of competition. Britain must be the most inactive major boxing nation both amateur and professional. this is starting to change however. Watch for some of the 2008 turnovers making decent waves at all levels in a few years. Then of course there's Haye, Froch etc.
Re: Class Gap, British to World
DavidPayne wrote:Plenty of fighters have stepped up and performed well from domestic level when few would have backed them, many have made a quantum leap to dethrone great champions; Honeyghan etc but I just wondered how many experienced the acidic reality in the way Lockett did last weekend.
I immediatley recalled Williams v Klitschko, Walker stepping up v Karmazin and most violent and sickening of all Pickering v Martinez.
London v Ali is another that comes to mind and of course good ole Howard Clarke's shot at Vargas.
I still think Pickering's was the cruellest exposure to a topdraw fighter I can bring to mind, any advance on that?
Michael Hunter Vs Steve Molitor is another
-
DavidPayne
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 6248
- Joined: 11 Mar 2004, 11:00
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Take my hat off to Hunter for what he got done with what he had.
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Same hereDavidPayne wrote:Take my hat off to Hunter for what he got done with what he had.
-
Old bones Ian
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 11806
- Joined: 13 Jul 2004, 07:33
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Lloyd v Barrera, Wenton v Barrera, or in fact any British boxer v Barrera.
-
Slapsie Maxie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 08:22
Re: Class Gap, British to World
I think there are a number of issues
1) Are british fighters rushed too quickly from amateur to pro? Would AK for example have benefitted from another major tournament in the amateurs?
2) Conversely, are they then slowed down too much in the pro's? The benefit of building a fighter is obvious, allowing them to face a range of "safe" opponents who will each ask different questions of them as they learn the pro game. But, because of the hype and money involved, they are held back for too long and then, when they do step up it is too much for them.
3) The quality of training in Britain is patently of lower quality than many nations. There are a handful of name trainers each with one or perhaps two big name fighters who, IMHO would have done as well if not better with other trainers. Graham, Enzo etc. When their big names go, it will be interesteing to see what they come up with.
4) Do Uk fighters actually spar enough and at good quality. We hear lots of talk about the gym wars in Detroit or Philly, when was the last time you hear that about a UK gym? obviously, you don't want to cut a fighter's career short, but if you make the ananalogy with children it is like never exposing them to germs. When they do finally come in contact with them, it can be serious
I think it is the same in most sports. We have the potential talent but breed mediocrity in our system
1) Are british fighters rushed too quickly from amateur to pro? Would AK for example have benefitted from another major tournament in the amateurs?
2) Conversely, are they then slowed down too much in the pro's? The benefit of building a fighter is obvious, allowing them to face a range of "safe" opponents who will each ask different questions of them as they learn the pro game. But, because of the hype and money involved, they are held back for too long and then, when they do step up it is too much for them.
3) The quality of training in Britain is patently of lower quality than many nations. There are a handful of name trainers each with one or perhaps two big name fighters who, IMHO would have done as well if not better with other trainers. Graham, Enzo etc. When their big names go, it will be interesteing to see what they come up with.
4) Do Uk fighters actually spar enough and at good quality. We hear lots of talk about the gym wars in Detroit or Philly, when was the last time you hear that about a UK gym? obviously, you don't want to cut a fighter's career short, but if you make the ananalogy with children it is like never exposing them to germs. When they do finally come in contact with them, it can be serious
I think it is the same in most sports. We have the potential talent but breed mediocrity in our system
-
Max Molyneux
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7084
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 16:53
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Nothing to learn from a gym war at all.bout the gym wars in Detroit or Philly
-
Peter Hick
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 82
- Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 14:00
Re: Class Gap, British to World
It's easy to blame "the system" but in the end it comes down to the individual.
If you have the talent and determination then you will you probably succeed at world level.
Most British fighters aren't good enough!
If you have the talent and determination then you will you probably succeed at world level.
Most British fighters aren't good enough!
-
Max Molyneux
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7084
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 16:53
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Yeah, It could test your bottle but doesn't teach you any skill and Is just reckless Imo. Durability can be strengthened with strength training, not getting hit so much In the face.
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Once a while a gym war is necessary.
Hard sparring is necessary always before a fight. The two are often interlinked.
Hard sparring is necessary always before a fight. The two are often interlinked.
-
Old bones Ian
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 11806
- Joined: 13 Jul 2004, 07:33
Re: Class Gap, British to World
TV companies are obsessed with 0 losses on a record, so this means having to build a boxer up with some undemanding matches.
Re: Class Gap, British to World
If fighters are better tested in their first 20 fights then the step up will be made easier - if you look at Mitchell, he should be fighting the likes of Gomez, Johansson, Estrada way before his 25th bout. And if they lose then they're simply not good enough (ala Derry Matthews), but at least they know what they can work on instead of conning people up until they fight a world class fighter and get badly exposed. It justifies the crictics that some fighters get when they fight bums and one good fighter and then con their way to a world title, like Arthur and Maccarinelli. I just wish fighters would be betetr tested and actually leanr from fights instead of having it so easy.
Last edited by Dioufy on 10 Jun 2008, 06:38, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Wales wrote:He'll be lucky to see the second or third round will Mr Locket - good luck to him though. In the words of the immortal Kevin Keegan "I'd love it... LOVE IT if we beat them"
Wales wrote:It's fights like this (imo) when the gulf between british / european class and world class is demonstrated in vicious fashion. It happens everynow and again, everyone has a reality check, and things go back to normal come Monday morning.
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Obviously if a fighter is good enough then he should make it through but the matchmacking is a problem I think, a lot of fighters now end up in 12 round wars early in their careers as they fight for WBO/IBO/WBU incontinence titles to satisfy TV, instead of learning from 10 rounders against solid international competition. Then some seem to stagnate and get stuck in a rut of fights against Eastern European/ domestic opponents without making the jump.
-
Max Molyneux
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7084
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 16:53
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Yeah G-Man learned that he thought he could Ko everyone early.Terry D wrote:
Nonsense Max. Gerald McClellan, James Toney and Thomas Hearns (to name three half-decent boxers) all learned from in sparring in the Kronk.
Do you think the fighters boxing in Philly learned nothing from sparring? Of course they did. The area had a patented style that was picked-up, and honed, in the gyms.
Ali perfected his later style by sparring whilst throwing very little at his opponent. Larry Holmes learned in those sessions what to do against Ali.
Personally, and it has been a while, I find that when making a mistake in defense nothing corrects that mistake better than getting twatted on the nose after making it.
Not seen Toney have a war In his fights, he usually toyed with them on the Inside.
Hearns wasn't a war type fighter either except when he fought Hagler.
Thinking corrects a mistake In defence. Getting twatted In the nose just gives you a nose bleed.
Too many wars just shorten a career and make you Into a fighter who just has too many wars.
-
DavidPayne
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 6248
- Joined: 11 Mar 2004, 11:00
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Fighters are learning in simulators not the real world.
And the library of paid losers grows because so many 'prospects' are being managed to meaningless 25-0 records.
Which is why the likes Youssef Al-Hamidi are important, why fighters like Mark Ramsey used to be vital.
Kids who can fight and come to win, despite their own limited horizons etc.
We learned more about Anthony Farnell against Ojay than 15 or whatever fights before it.
Too many journeyman are completely and utterly without an ounce of ambition in a contest. And it is the quest for the pristine 25-0 record that facilitates it. If a fighter who is 23-1-1 or 22-3 could be sold as easily as a rounded prospect, the journeyman may actually employ their powers to stretch the prospect. As it is, its just a sham.
Which then creates meaningless under-cards, which then devalues the card and makes it all about the headline, which then means protecting the headline is paramount. Which means they get fed third tier opponents for months and years until they cash in at post 30 years or post 35-0.
Oh, I'm off for a twix before I slash my wrists.
And the library of paid losers grows because so many 'prospects' are being managed to meaningless 25-0 records.
Which is why the likes Youssef Al-Hamidi are important, why fighters like Mark Ramsey used to be vital.
Kids who can fight and come to win, despite their own limited horizons etc.
We learned more about Anthony Farnell against Ojay than 15 or whatever fights before it.
Too many journeyman are completely and utterly without an ounce of ambition in a contest. And it is the quest for the pristine 25-0 record that facilitates it. If a fighter who is 23-1-1 or 22-3 could be sold as easily as a rounded prospect, the journeyman may actually employ their powers to stretch the prospect. As it is, its just a sham.
Which then creates meaningless under-cards, which then devalues the card and makes it all about the headline, which then means protecting the headline is paramount. Which means they get fed third tier opponents for months and years until they cash in at post 30 years or post 35-0.
Oh, I'm off for a twix before I slash my wrists.
-
Max Molyneux
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7084
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 16:53
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Train and sparred a few times In an amateur gyms at most.teddy007 wrote:Max are you or have you ever boxed in your life?Max Molyneux wrote:Yeah G-Man learned that he thought he could Ko everyone early.Terry D wrote:
Nonsense Max. Gerald McClellan, James Toney and Thomas Hearns (to name three half-decent boxers) all learned from in sparring in the Kronk.
Do you think the fighters boxing in Philly learned nothing from sparring? Of course they did. The area had a patented style that was picked-up, and honed, in the gyms.
Ali perfected his later style by sparring whilst throwing very little at his opponent. Larry Holmes learned in those sessions what to do against Ali.
Personally, and it has been a while, I find that when making a mistake in defense nothing corrects that mistake better than getting twatted on the nose after making it.
Not seen Toney have a war In his fights, he usually toyed with them on the Inside.
Hearns wasn't a war type fighter either except when he fought Hagler.
Thinking corrects a mistake In defence. Getting twatted In the nose just gives you a nose bleed.
Too many wars just shorten a career and make you Into a fighter who just has too many wars.
Last edited by Max Molyneux on 10 Jun 2008, 06:53, edited 1 time in total.
-
DavidPayne
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 6248
- Joined: 11 Mar 2004, 11:00
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Max,
Got to disagree with you.
True, you dont want wars every day of the week. But fighters need to practice as close to real fight conditions as possible and hard, tough sparring is essential to that.
Got to disagree with you.
True, you dont want wars every day of the week. But fighters need to practice as close to real fight conditions as possible and hard, tough sparring is essential to that.
-
Max Molyneux
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 7084
- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 16:53
Re: Class Gap, British to World
G-man regressed because of his own over confidence, leaving a gym doesn't take away your talent.
No I don't follow suit, Enzo does get them to spar, just not many fighters outside their own gym which I don't agree with. I don't disagree you need sparring, I never said that and you know It.
I don't see the point In constant punches to the face If your not going to defend or learn to defend against them sparring or In the ring. You may learn what to do In an actual bout and defend them but why not defend In sparring too?
Sparring hard rounds doesn't necessarily mean It was a war either.
No I don't follow suit, Enzo does get them to spar, just not many fighters outside their own gym which I don't agree with. I don't disagree you need sparring, I never said that and you know It.
I don't see the point In constant punches to the face If your not going to defend or learn to defend against them sparring or In the ring. You may learn what to do In an actual bout and defend them but why not defend In sparring too?
Sparring hard rounds doesn't necessarily mean It was a war either.
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Reading Atlas and Egan's books, Tyson had wars in sparring in the early to mid 80's. But fighters couldn't keep up with him and had to be changed every two mins. Didn't do him any harm.
Duran was also a bastard in sparring insisting on full-on wars, especially when he sparred in the Kronk when he fought in New York.
Duran was also a bastard in sparring insisting on full-on wars, especially when he sparred in the Kronk when he fought in New York.
-
Slapsie Maxie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 08:22
Re: Class Gap, British to World
If you want to see the benefits of sparring, look at Dennis Andries pre and post his time at the Kronk.
That does raise another issue, and that is that many UK fighters spend their whole time in the UK. Some of the best, Eubank, Lewis even Benn, benefitted from spending time in other environments
Slapsie
That does raise another issue, and that is that many UK fighters spend their whole time in the UK. Some of the best, Eubank, Lewis even Benn, benefitted from spending time in other environments
Slapsie
-
Old bones Ian
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 11806
- Joined: 13 Jul 2004, 07:33
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Sometimes yes being in America will improve a boxer, i believe that Benn, Eubank and Lewis would have been hits on the world scene with or without visiting a american gym.
But it can't do any harm , i would say those gyms are more competitive in America as they have more of a depth of talent, David Haye certainly was praising the gyms around Miami for this reason.
But it can't do any harm , i would say those gyms are more competitive in America as they have more of a depth of talent, David Haye certainly was praising the gyms around Miami for this reason.
-
Slapsie Maxie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 08:22
Re: Class Gap, British to World
totally agree, the depth is the strength
I think Benn really needed it though. Post Watson, he was looking like another puffed up, if exciting fighter. I think he came back from those fights in the US a different man and with a lot more respect
Ask any US fans about favourite british boxers and Benns name always comes up because he went over there and did to them what there fighters come over here and usually do to us.
I think Benn really needed it though. Post Watson, he was looking like another puffed up, if exciting fighter. I think he came back from those fights in the US a different man and with a lot more respect
Ask any US fans about favourite british boxers and Benns name always comes up because he went over there and did to them what there fighters come over here and usually do to us.
Re: Class Gap, British to World
Who doesnt defend in sparring?Max Molyneux wrote: I don't see the point In constant punches to the face If your not going to defend or learn to defend against them sparring or In the ring. You may learn what to do In an actual bout and defend them but why not defend In sparring too?
.