Why heavyweights are bigger today

[Ambling Alp]

As I said, throughout boxing history the biggest fighter hasn't been the best.
Dunkhorst was just one of many examples. I also mentioned Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Carnera, Jones. I would be happy to list more.

You didn't answer my question: How often in over 100 years of boxing history has the biggest man at a given time been the best?
Why doesn't Valuev completely dominate the heavyweight division now?

Klitischko-Well he is big, but he hasn't exactly dominated the sport. He has been knocked by three different fighters, two of them were smaller than him.

The tape measure, the watch? Well maybe in drug enhanced track and field there have been differences.
How about baseball? The pitchers don't throw faster, balls aren't hit farther,runners don't run the bases faster. Bob Feller was timde in the high 90's in the 1940's. There are other pitchers before him were probably as fast but weren't measured. Mickey Mantle could run to first in 3.1 seconds in the 1950's.
Up until the 1980's it was considered normal for a starting picher to pitch every 4 games and last 9 innings. Now a days they seldom do that even though they only only pitch every 5 games.

How about golf? Despite better equipment scores haven't gone down.
How about basketball? Are you seriously going to suggest we are in a golden era in the NBA?

If we are going to go by statisical measures, why do so many current heavyweights have trouble going 10 rounds even though statisically they are usually fighting at a slower pace?

How was Roy Jones able to win the heavyweight title at 193 pounds?
How was Chris Byrd able to be the champion?

Bigger doesn't mean you are stronger. Being Stronger doesn't mean that you can punch harder. Punching harder doesn't mean you are better.
There are things to consider besides size. there is technique, stamina, speed, fighting smart,defense, a chin etc.

Size is something to be considered, but so are many other things in boxing.
There have been great, good, mediocre, and bad fighters in every era. In most eras, one weight class is strong while another is weak. The heavyweight division right now is weak.

[Ezzard]

I agree with Granberry on the enhancers...

IMO the best HW of the alst 20 years, Holyfield, was a CW who pumped himslf up.

Also, with all the HWs on enhancers how do you know their real size?

[John Galt]

Ambling Alp, exactly, you nailed it again. Mickey Mantle was the throw back, the guy who trained on alcohol and cigarettes. The real athlete. Faster than any modern athlete. Again, who needs nutrition, scientific training, etc.? If you are a real man, alcohol and cigs will get you there.
Look at Ed Dunkhorst - started his career at 205 and probably meticulously bulked himself to 260 for his last fight. Could scientific training do better? Compiled an impressive 13-9-5 record in the golden age of boxing when EVERYONE was great. Today, a 205 pounder with that kind of record and a 55 pound weight gain would just be a slob, but in those days when men were men...
I feel humbled by the knowledge of athletics/boxing exhibited on this message board.
I am just glad that we have weight classes to protect the heavyweights from the fly weights. Even the small, quick heavyweights would look slow compared to a good 112 pounder. Mismatch in favor of the small man.

[The Great John L]

John, where are all the boxing gyms? To have boxers learn how to box, don't you need gyms?

[bjermaine]

I agree with Granberry on the enhancers...

IMO the best HW of the alst 20 years, Holyfield, was a CW who pumped himslf up.

Also, with all the HWs on enhancers how do you know their real size?

words that no sane person should ever write.

[Robinson]

Enhancers and Steroids have been around boxing and other sports for quite some time.
I would say that alot of athlets were using these things during the 50s and perhaps
before.

What is new is how evolved the science has become at testing and masking.

What is new is how the public is aware of these things, not to many people
were that familiar of athletes 'using' pre 70s.

Steroids do not make people BIGGER. Some forms of hormones and steroids
can. Athletes dont blood dope and take steroids to get bigger. They do this
for performance, recovery etc.

Some steroids are LEGAL for athletes to take in the case of spinal and
muscle damage.

Some steroids are legal in the case of sports induced asthma.

Oh but fighters these days are big because of steroids. Imagine if they
drug tested in the past... I wonder what we would find...

[John Galt]

We all know that boxers didn't use steroids or other performance enhancing drugs until the 90s. Boxers in times past had doctors in their camps to treat them for colds and sickness only. Dr. Pacheco would never dream of telling Ali or Dundee that he could prescribe legal PEs that could enhance their man's performance, by helping him train harder, and recover quicker for better training.
In earlier times, athletes had a strick code of ethics. No one would take advantage of a substance that would give him an unfair advantage over the competition. Performance enhancing drugs were legal in the 60s and 70s but the ethics of the athletes, managers, and promoters would not allow anyone to consider using them for better athletic performance.
Even today, it is rare to find athletes who will use performance enhancing drugs to get an edge on the competition. If athletes used HGH and other PEs it would probably allow some of them to compete well into their 40s but we all know that does not happen.

[granberry]

We all know that boxers didn't use steroids or other performance enhancing drugs until the 90s. Boxers in times past had doctors in their camps to treat them for colds and sickness only. Dr. Pacheco would never dream of telling Ali or Dundee that he could prescribe legal PEs that could enhance their man's performance, by helping him train harder, and recover quicker for better training.
In earlier times, athletes had a strick code of ethics. No one would take advantage of a substance that would give him an unfair advantage over the competition. Performance enhancing drugs were legal in the 60s and 70s but the ethics of the athletes, managers, and promoters would not allow anyone to consider using them for better athletic performance.
Even today, it is rare to find athletes who will use performance enhancing drugs to get an edge on the competition. If athletes used HGH and other PEs it would probably allow some of them to compete well into their 40s but we all know that does not happen.

It was well known in boxing circles that the person closest to Ali, the idiot Bundini Brown, was spending $100 and more a day on his cocaine habit in the later years of Ali's career.

The comment was, "If he [Bundini] is, then what might that tell you about Ali?"

I had a thread here on Billy Bello and Bernard Mays that was trashed of course by collins and crew.

That thread would have been very instructive in relation to this topic if it hadn't been destroyed.

[Collins2000]

We all know that boxers didn't use steroids or other performance enhancing drugs until the 90s. Boxers in times past had doctors in their camps to treat them for colds and sickness only. Dr. Pacheco would never dream of telling Ali or Dundee that he could prescribe legal PEs that could enhance their man's performance, by helping him train harder, and recover quicker for better training.
In earlier times, athletes had a strick code of ethics. No one would take advantage of a substance that would give him an unfair advantage over the competition. Performance enhancing drugs were legal in the 60s and 70s but the ethics of the athletes, managers, and promoters would not allow anyone to consider using them for better athletic performance.
Even today, it is rare to find athletes who will use performance enhancing drugs to get an edge on the competition. If athletes used HGH and other PEs it would probably allow some of them to compete well into their 40s but we all know that does not happen.

It was well known in boxing circles that the person closest to Ali, the idiot Bundini Brown, was spending $100 and more a day on his cocaine habit in the later years of Ali's career.

.

Any evidence or just more unproven accusations?

[BoxBuzz]

Collin's it's a science fiction fact,...and if you were lucky enough to be on the east coast....you knew. You just knew. That's how it works. Now...forget about it and stop antagonizing our guest.

[Robinson]

One would have to be extremely naive that boxers were not 'using' in the past.

Steroids are nothing new. Just the masking agents and the science behind it.
I know of plenty of amateurs in wrestling and one from the Cuban Judo olympic
team that have used PE's and guess what...the boxers they know are no different.

Its not classically accepted, but alot of boxers in the past did use. Whether it
helped them or not, who knows. Does it help modern fighters...not that often.

It does however help give one an edge....and thats all you need in a close
fight.

The myth that steroids are taken by ATHLETES for size is ignorance.
Body builders use steroids for size. Steroids, HGH, EPO and the likes
are performance enhancers, they help with recovery, help restore and
repair torn tissue...help increase blood cells, help develop muscle
cross section...and so on.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Compare todays nutrition to the nutrition 50 years ago.....its not even close.

[Robinson]

Blckbuster

You think the average person eats better now or then?

[Diamond WEAPON]

Blckbuster

You think the average person eats better now or then?

The average person now has the potential to eat much better now, whether they choose to do so is another story. In all facets, athletes of today could easily surpass the abilities of athletes of the past, but it all depends on if they truly dedicate and apply themselves to such endeavors.

[Knucklez]

Ambling Alp - Exactly, Ed Dunkhorst was probably an Olympic champion like Wlad, and he was probably more skilled,bigger and better. Fitzsimmons cut him down to size. Smaller is better. That proves it.
We all know that stamina is not affected by bigger people leaning on smaller people or bigger people hitting much smaller ones. All of the smaller fighters in history would not tire from pushing, pulling, supporting a much larger fighter. They just had great stamina and nothing would affect that stamina. The long, slow jog is the ONLY way to condition a boxer.
Muscles, size, strength mean nothing. Fitzsimmons beat Dunkhorst and that proves it.
Oh, and don't try that crap about athletes have improved in measurable sports. The stop watch, the tape measure, pounds mean nothing and all have been manipulated by the media and the "modern is better" crowd. Big deal, Ambling Alp, John L. and I know that 10-11 seconds in 1900 or 1910 is 8-9 seconds now. The old watches kept REAL time, today the watches run slower to make it look like athletes are better. We all know better. Ed Dunkhorst would dominate today, probably in a number of sports, not just in boxing. Ambling Alp knows conditioning and he knows boxing, good to find such an enlightened man.

John, you have also failed to mention that it most sports, equipment is superior today than it was previously. I wonder what Jesse Owens times would have been if was running in modern sprint shoes, on a modern track.

Or how a modern soccer player would perform in old school boots, on a pitch that wasn't flat.

In boxing, however, the equipment is basically the same as it's always been. Two guys in shorts and boots, in a ring, with gloves. While some of the materials used for these items may have changed, you can't use these changes to fully or partially explain improvements in statistics, as you can with other sports.

Also John, you said: "Smaller is better. That proves it. ". Can you prove or demonstrate that being a big heavyweight is better than being a small heavyweight?

[Ezzard]

Try working out as a boxer does... Putting yourself through those strenuous hours of hard physical exercise... Then try and put on weight liike many boxers do today. I tell you it's very, very hard. Boxers are jumpimng up weight classes and staying totally ripped in physique. The only way they can do this is through using something they shouldn't.

I agree that some form of substances have been around a long time but the changes in effectiveness are huge. When you try and compare fighters from different eras this has to be a factor.

[Robinson]

Ezzard
I know this and I think this is over looked by many.

Most athletes today have been athletes from a very young age
and have been full tme athletes from there on.
In the past many had to work a full time job and manage training
wiith work. Not to mention that a lot of them got into the game
at a late stage.

[Ezzard]

I think those are fair points.

I'm no expert on the pros and cons of training today versus training of yesteryear...

I know the difference between weight training and having a gruelling manual job. Weights will make you strong at...well...lifting weights... I had a gruelling manual job and trained on top of that (with weights too) and it was like being superhuman for a while. The inner core strength was unbelievable. I could sit down and eat 6-7 meals a day no problem. i was totally ripped but simply did not put on weight like these guys do.

[Robinson]

I think we should not over look the factor that gentics plays also.

some people are 'gifted' with that 'buffed' look.

[Ezzard]

I think we should not over look the factor that gentics plays also.

some people are 'gifted' with that 'buffed' look.

Harold Johnson, Ken Norton, Cleveland Williams, yes... But these days almost all fighters have Mr Universe physiques so it's not just genetics...

[John Galt]

Knucklez said that equipment is better today in sports. I can not agree. Whatever Jesse Owens was wearing or running on was superior to anything new.
Jesse ran a 10.3 100 meters with a hand held, real stop watch. Sprinters today are electronically timed and are running around 9.7. Sure the "media-sports" partnership will tell us that electronic timing slows times by about .2 of a second. If timed electonically, that would have made Jesse's best 100 meter time a 10.5. That would make him slower than Flo Jo's best time. My great grandfather told me that Jesse Owens was the fastest man ever, so I know it is true. The times have been manipulated by the media-sports conspiracy.
Sports have not gotten better, it is just a conspiracy. Even if other sports are better, boxing has not improved. It has regressed, we all know it. Today's boxers are too big, too strong, they don't do enough long slow jogs, they don't have the old time trainers, they aren't tough enough, they play video games while growing up, they don't work hard menial labor...

[Knucklez]

John Galt avoids the question yet again, while continuing with a style of posting that was funny about 5 pages ago, but not any more.

[granberry]

Blckbuster

You think the average person eats better now or then?

That depends on whether you think eating the growth hormones, steroids, antibiotics, food coloring chemicals, food flavoring chemicals, and preservatives in today's meat is GOOD for you.

[Knucklez]

. . .In boxing, however, the equipment is basically the same as it's always been.

knucklez has just contributed a classic example

of the current Larry Merchant, Bert Sugar educated boxing "fan" and his "knowledge."

The ignorance on display is breathtaking.

Jack Dempsey and Jess Willard fought for the heavyweight title with FIVE ounce gloves.

Modern heroes Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler fought for the middleweight title with TEN ounce gloves.

As far as knucklez knows, that is the same.

knucklez, you wouldn't mind if I use your statement as a prime example of the cluelessness of the current media-indoctrinated herd of boxing "expert" wannabes, would you ?

Congratulations on you all time classic demonstration, knucklez.

Interesting comments from the man who claimed that if a southpaw threw a left hook, he would punch himself in the face.

The same man who has been exposed as a fraud on numerous occasions.

You will notice, Granny, that I said that equipment is "Basically" the same and that there have been material changes to equipment as time has gone by. These basic points were used to illustrate the fact that the equipment in other sports has changed more than in boxing, using Jesse Owens as a perfect example.

Still, it's a funny as ever to see another of your washwoman hissy fits

[John Galt]

Wonder why Granberry was banned from the Cyber Boxing Zone. That is where the "experts" gather, guys like ex NY state commisioner, Randy Gordon who claimed on that board to have a 37-2 amateur boxing record. Few amateurs have a record like that so when Randy speaks all should listen. Curiously Randy lost his only pro fight. Most men who compiled such an amateur record would have turned pro to much fanfare and would have ran off a long line of wins on their way to the top.
Well, Randy being the modest man that he is has refused to discuss his sparkling amateur career with a number of people on the CBZ who have questioned the veracity of Randy and have asked for proof of his accomplishments. Was Granberry banned from the CBZ for questioning Randy about his career? The CBZ, does not allow criticism of "heroes" like Gordon.
A cynical man could point out that a 37-2 record in the amateurs is not likely. Foreman, Tyson, Holmes, all lost more than that in fewer fights I believe, but if Randy said it, it must be true. Afterall, he is a boxing writer and one time big shot at The Ring magazine. He wouldn't lie - would he?