Criticise your favourite fighter

[zslayton]

anyone - apart from bruce seldon and his mum - who says their fave fighter is bruce seldon needs locking up.

did i say he was my favorite? no, i don't recall saying that....EVER, even though the link says 'criticise your favourite fighter.' i liked him as a fighter when he would work his jab and before bowe made him look like shit or he sat down out of fear of tyson. he did hold a piece of the heavyweight title at one time and would beat a few of the former champions in head to head matchups............although i wouldn't say very many. plus, you don't ever hear anything bad about bruce seldon (drugs, rape, crime in general).

well there you have it........i was wrong on that one.........the urge to smoke week and have sex with a minor seems to get them every time.

[I Feel Fine]

As for criticizing my favorite fighter. I would just say that Ali should have been more consistently in shape. An early example of him not being in adequate shape was Jones, but it really started in the 70s when he started to find it difficult to get the weight off. He was in bad shape in a lot of fights after Frazier in '71 and '72, particularly against Mathis and Patterson II, but it caught up to him with Norton in the first fight. He was close to shot and outright shot against Young and Spinks, but he would have done better if he had been in shape. But, more importantly, he should have retired after Frazier III or even Coopman where he could have retired 50-2 with wins over everyone he ever fought and as two time champion with five untainted defenses in his second reign.

As for his technical flaws; no one is perfect and everyone has their quirks. He never lost a fight for lack of body punching, I sort of chuckle when I hear people mention that as if it were some damning problem that he had. I heard Don Mattingley said something once about hitting, about how some guys just have their odd way of hitting but if it works it works; and no one can say Ali's style didn't work for him, even if he broke "cardinal rules" and had what are considered to be "technical flaws." But, that said, it at the very least made things more difficult for him at times, especially as he got older, so I would throw that in as a secondary thing.

I could name other things, but I think the not-staying-in-shape and the fact that he didn't retire soon enough are the most obvious things and are what hurt him the most.

[raylawpc]

I didn't make the statement. But Marciano didn't fight in four different decades, and didn't fight an equivalent of a prime Leonard or prime Hearns or a Benitez or a Hagler; so its frivolous to compare him to Duran.

Okay. I apologize for attributing that to you. But I'm not comparing Marciano to Duran. You are. elmer said "everybody has lost." It a fact of history that Marciano didn't.

[I Feel Fine]

I didn't criticize you for saying it, I simply said that it was a frivolous comparison and I hate how numbers are used to build up fighters who are less worthy.

[raylawpc]

I didn't criticize you for saying it, I simply said that it was a frivolous comparison and I hate how numbers are used to build up fighters who are less worthy.

How is being the only undefeated heavyweight champion NOT an accomplishment? How is Marciano "less worthy?" The guy fought the best heavyweights available at the time he was fighting, and he NEVER LOST. Would he have lost in another era? Who can say with certainty? But the fact is HE DIDN'T LOSE, and he didn't duck anybody to keep a perfect record.

[I Feel Fine]

I didn't criticize you for saying it, I simply said that it was a frivolous comparison and I hate how numbers are used to build up fighters who are less worthy.

How is being the only undefeated heavyweight champion NOT an accomplishment? How is Marciano "less worthy?" The guy fought the best heavyweights available at the time he was fighting, and he NEVER LOST. Would he have lost in another era? Who can say with certainty? But the fact is HE DIDN'T LOSE, and he didn't duck anybody to keep a perfect record.

As you can tell, I'm extremely impressed.

Duran had lots of fun kicking the shit out of aging champions in Palomino and Cuevas. And that was up in weight. Rocky was fighting aged champions who were themselves coming up in weight, not the other way around, along with the oldest champion of all time to that point and poor Joe Louis who needed to fight because of his tax situation.

I'm a little more impressed by substance than by numbers. I'll take Erik Morales' five losses over Zsolt Erdei's undefeated record.

[raylawpc]

I didn't criticize you for saying it, I simply said that it was a frivolous comparison and I hate how numbers are used to build up fighters who are less worthy.

How is being the only undefeated heavyweight champion NOT an accomplishment? How is Marciano "less worthy?" The guy fought the best heavyweights available at the time he was fighting, and he NEVER LOST. Would he have lost in another era? Who can say with certainty? But the fact is HE DIDN'T LOSE, and he didn't duck anybody to keep a perfect record.

As you can tell, I'm extremely impressed.

Duran had lots of fun kicking the shit out of aged champions in Palomino and Cuevas. And that was up in weight. Rocky was fighting aged champions who were themselves coming up in weight, not the other way around, along with the oldest champion of all time to that point and poor Joe Louis who needed to fight because of his tax situation.

I'm a little more impressed by substance than by numbers. I'll take Erik Morales' five losses over Zsolt Erdei's undefeated record.

So you suggest . . . Marciano shouldn't have fought Joe Louis? Or he shouldn't have challenged Jersey Joe because Joe was "the oldest heavyweight champion of all time to that point?" Who would you have had him fight in the period in which he was a contender and champion?

I don't really care if you are impressed or not. The simple historical fact is that he's the only undefeated heavyweight champion, and he didn't duck anybody to get an undefeated record.

I'm not saying he was the all-time greatest champion. I'm not even saying he was better than Ali. But I think he is entitled to respect and admiration for being the only undefeated heavyweight champion in the history of the sport.

[I Feel Fine]

Eh, I suppose he could have built a time machine and fought twenty years later, that's one option. But I'm thinking more along the lines that maybe, possibly he could get a little less hype from credulous fans for accomplishing something that is rare, impressive, but not exactly the greatest achievement in boxing history or close to it. Duran's career is much more impressive, but I've never heard someone call Duran the greatest fighter of all time, I've heard an a lot of people in my lifetime call Marciano the greatest fighter of all time.

[raylawpc]

Eh, I suppose he could have built a time machine and fought twenty years later, that's one option. But I'm thinking more along the lines that maybe, possibly he could get a little less hype from credulous fans for accomplishing something that is rare, impressive, but not exactly the greatest achievement in boxing history or close to it. Duran's career is much more impressive, but I've never heard someone call Duran the greatest fighter of all time, I've heard an a lot of people in my lifetime call Marciano the greatest fighter of all time.

Marciano was a great fighter. Duran was a great fighter. That's good enough for me.

[I Feel Fine]

Eh, I suppose he could have built a time machine and fought twenty years later, that's one option. But I'm thinking more along the lines that maybe, possibly he could get a little less hype from credulous fans for accomplishing something that is rare, impressive, but not exactly the greatest achievement in boxing history or close to it. Duran's career is much more impressive, but I've never heard someone call Duran the greatest fighter of all time, I've heard an a lot of people in my lifetime call Marciano the greatest fighter of all time.

Marciano was a great fighter. Duran was a great fighter. That's good enough for me.

I didn't say Marciano wasn't a great fighter. But there are levels of greatness.

[raylawpc]

Okay

[Robinson]

One thing we can all agree on is that Marciano is one tough, hard working man
that though not a technician he is a locomotive of steaming blood and sweat.

[elmersalsa]

Once again you said that Leonard isn't a real fighter. "Real fighters give rematches...I never seen Leonard did that...did you? "

You really expect people to believe it when you say a guy isn't a real fighter, but yet he is one of your favorite fighters? Come on.

You don't like Ali's style, thought it was necessary to start a ridiculaus thread about 5 guys who would surely beat him, but he is one of your favorite fighters? Come on.

You make every excuse in the book for Duran and you bend over backwards to rip Ali and Leonard. Ok I can play that game.

Roberto "Forever a Lightweight" Duran is one of my favorite fighters.
I like he never gave Ken Buchanan a rematch after his controversial win.
I like how he gave fought dirty against Davey Moore.
I like how he never gave Moore a rematch.
I like how he never gave Iran Barkley a rematch after a fight that could have gone either way.
I like how he conveniently skipped a fight with Cervantes at Jr welterweight when moving from lightweight fulltime (he fought several times above 140 as a lighthweight champion.) to welterweight.
I like how he made commnents about he was going to send Ray Lampkin to the morgue.
I like how he was such a jerk in interviews before he fought Leonard.
I like how he never gave Leonard any credit after their first fight. (Though Leonard gave him credit)
I like how he quit like a baby against Leonard in the 2nd fight, ripping off the fans who paid to watch the fight and who paid to watch it on Closed Circuit TV.
I like how he wouldn't give Leonard any credit after their 2nd fight.
I like how made made excuses for losing to Leonard. (Leonard didn't make excuses when he lost.)

Most of all, I like how he has been a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Duran is not one of your favorites alp, why are you criticizing him?

I do not understand why you cannot believe that Ali and Leonard were favorites of mine. The only thing was that I liked Duran more than both of them. That is all.

Leonard was going to retire like a SISSY AFTER HIS LOST OF DURAN. You don't mention that.
Leonard knew of Duran's habits after big wins, of how he ballooned up to 200 pounds. You don't want to believe that, fine with me. YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE IT. It is not convenient for you.

Leonard CLUTCHED AND GRABBED THE WHOLE NIGHT. How can a guy get RESPECT FOR THAT? You called that slugging it out with Duran?


When has SRL has given a rematch, alp? When? THAT IS A FACT.
Davey Moore never called Duran for a rematch...Where have you read that?

Duran never gave Buchanan a rematch. I admit to that. At least I admit that Duran did not wanted part of Buchanan

Well, let's criticize Ali for not giving Foreman a rematch.
Well, let's critize Robinson for not giving Basilio a rematch.
Well, let's criticize Chavez for not giving Frankie Randall a rematch.


And don't make me laugh that Duran never wanted to fight Antonio Cervantes. You don't have the sources. You probably don't know SPANISH. Hey, you are not even Colombian nor South American. Duran wanted to fight Cervantes. Cervantes' manager Ramiro Machado of Venezuela did not wanted the fight.

[theone]

All due respect Elmer, I highly enjoy reading your post, whether I agree with some or not, but there is no way i would ever mistake you being an Ali or Leonard fan. You go after them way too much, often unjustly, to be a true fan. Although I can readily admit to what I consider my favorite fighter's shortcomings, I wouldn't harp on them so much or start posts dissecting them.
A true fan wouldn't do that.

[BoxBuzz]

All due respect Elmer, I highly enjoy reading your post, whether I agree with some or not, but there is no way i would ever mistake you being an Ali or Leonard fan. You go after them way too much, often unjustly, to be a true fan. Although I can readily admit to what I consider my favorite fighter's shortcomings, I wouldn't harp on them so much or start posts dissecting them.
A true fan wouldn't do that.

So your saying that maybe he's not a fan but he may sort of blow in their direction from time to time?

[Grimm]

Larry Holmes
Inability to sit down on his punches.
Some fights could've came in in better shape.
Could have learned to throw a combination.

Michael Spinks
Only fault I could find is him fighting scared against Tyson.

[HomicideHenry]

The one draw back with Marciano is, in my own opinion, I wish he would have stuck around for just a little bit longer and fought some younger guys; maybe then critics today wouldn't point out that Walcott was 37, Charles was on the downside, Moore was just old, and that Louis wasn't even an echo of who he used to be.

Would it have mattered had he fought Satterfield or Valdes or Jackson or Baker, Walls or some other opponent? Would his credability have been any better had he fought Patterson, or better yet, come out of retirement and have fought Johansson? Who knows...I personally think it wouldn't make a difference, people would still use the stand by that the era sucked and that Frazier, Ali and Foreman would have went undefeated in that time period as well.

[raylawpc]

The one draw back with Marciano is, in my own opinion, I wish he would have stuck around for just a little bit longer and fought some younger guys; maybe then critics today wouldn't point out that Walcott was 37, Charles was on the downside, Moore was just old, and that Louis wasn't even an echo of who he used to be.

Would it have mattered had he fought Satterfield or Valdes or Jackson or Baker, Walls or some other opponent? Would his credability have been any better had he fought Patterson, or better yet, come out of retirement and have fought Johansson? Who knows...I personally think it wouldn't make a difference, people would still use the stand by that the era sucked and that Frazier, Ali and Foreman would have went undefeated in that time period as well.

From all I've read, Marciano couldn't/wouldn't stick around for three reasons: (1) He had come to detest Al Weill and didn't want to fight for him anymore (he believed Weill cheated him out of some money in the Cockell fight); (2) his back problems were getting progressively worse; (3) his family wanted him to retire. The third reason was the one he stated at his retirement press conference.

I don't recall any criticism from anyone when he retired; all that came in later years. I think most sportswriters and fans at the time felt like he had wiped out the division, and had done enough. I don't recall reading a single article from that time saying he retired to avoid Satterfield, Valdes and company.

[My2Sense]

I don't recall any criticism from anyone when he retired; all that came in later years. I think most sportswriters and fans at the time felt like he had wiped out the division, and had done enough. I don't recall reading a single article from that time saying he retired to avoid Satterfield, Valdes and company.

I agree.

There was some criticism during his reign for not fighting Valdez (and there is some validity to it IMO), but Valdez had already lost to Moore (who got his own title shot off of that) and Satterfield before Rocky retired, and with that lost any credibility as a title fight opponent. And in general, he was done after Satterfield beat him.

Satterfield was never really considered a credible title challenger. He lost several key fights at heavyweight that might have gotten him title shots (ie: Charles, Rex Layne) and generally lost almost as often as he won. Satterfield was never considered in the class of Walcott, Charles, or Moore, regardless of their respective ages.