Most cowardly performance?

[bjermaine]

i like the topic on here with naming some of the bravest performances in history, now let's name some of the most cowardly. i'll start off.

seldon vs. tyson

this maybe #1. i'm trying to think of some others that stand out and none of them come close to this.

[Jaywheel]

spinks vs tyson

[Robinson]

Im sorry but it is not for some loungeroom analysis to judge a man's
cowardice.

Seriously...often the hardest thing a man can feel is walking down that
long aisle past all of those people and then stepping through those
ropes.

Whether Seldon faked the knock down or how injured he was is known
by him alone. He was hit before each knock down.

Now if a man decides he has had enough, he should be allowed to
quit.

Their IS honor in this.

This is perhaps why boxin is a lot more brutal and dangerous than
MMA and other sports. Because submitting before a superior
opponent is condemned by the fans and the analysis.

I made the Seldon vs Tyson thread becaise Seldon had been
accused of going down without actually being hit.

Im not even a Seldon fan. I am however a fan of boxers and
the courage it takes to do what they do.

[Robinson]

Im not even commenting on Spinks Vs Tyson.


How about Ali for not enlistin in the US Military ?

What made him any better than the 100's of thousands
of other US citizens whose lives were changed by the
war and conscription ?

He atleast knew he would not be doing anything worse
than Joe Louis or Ray Robinson did during WW2.

Against his religion...I am sure adultery, bigotry and
the likes are as well. But it is amazing what a man
of 'faith' can do to justify away ones actions.

[BoxBuzz]

Yep I have to agree, as much as I admire what Moore did vs Durelle, I don't think that means that when a man thinks he has had enough it's a mark against his honor. I don't think Vitali was cowardly to stop a fight based on a rotator cuff injury, stopping based on that sort of injury should not be belittled. I think that's what happened to Liston as well in his first fight with Ali.

I don't think less of Frazier for not coming out against Ali whether it was his decision or his corner.
I don't think Tszyu was cowardly vs Hatton.
I don't think Ali was cowardly vs Holmes.
I feel certain that whatever was going through Duran's head (or gut) he was NOT being a coward at the moment of No Mas.

These great champions or their corners made critical and sensible decisions IMHO. Sometimes it's best to stop for today and come back tomorrow.

When an Ali or an Abraham or a Liston fights the majority of a fight with a broken jaw and refuses to capitulate it's inspiring, however if they would have chosen to throw in the towel I would not say they were cowards. Chico was remarkably clever AND resiliant in his remarkable comeback in one of the great fights of recent memory, but he would not have been cowardly if he would have stayed down. IMHO.

This is a tough one, perhaps the only truly cowardly acts are when the so called champions refuse to sign on the line and take their chances with the best competition. But once they step in and trade it's hard to call a foul. Granted there are many uninspired or lazy performances, but cowardly? It may be going a bit to far to use that terminology once two fighters engage.

Funny as I saw my language in the upper paragraph and utilized the word "foul" maybe there is something to be said about the fighters who blatantly foul their opponents.....I suppose there is room for debate on this one, but the counter argument is that you are to "defend yourself at all times". DURING THE FIGHT.

Perhaps the single most disgraceful thing I have ever seen was when the fighter known as "the alien" was cold cocked after the fight was over. That fighter was not only the most cowardly boxer I have ever witnessed but perhaps one of the most cowardly human beings I have ever witnessed.

[I Feel Fine]

Im not even commenting on Spinks Vs Tyson.


How about Ali for not enlistin in the US Military ?

What made him any better than the 100's of thousands
of other US citizens whose lives were changed by the
war and conscription ?

He atleast knew he would not be doing anything worse
than Joe Louis or Ray Robinson did during WW2.

Against his religion...I am sure adultery, bigotry and
the likes are as well. But it is amazing what a man
of 'faith' can do to justify away ones actions.

What does that have to do with boxing?

Whether or not he was morally wrong not to go, it had nothing to do with cowardice. Robinson supposedly got out of the military by faking an injury.

Yet another boxrec poster showing that their dislike of Ali has little to do with boxing. But I suppose Ali deserves less respect than Bruce Seldon; whose performance against Tyson would also be my pick.

[Robinson]

I must concour. I think the most cowardly acts I have seen in boxing
have come in the sucker punches at the weigh in's press conferences
or at the stare down.

Some of the most cowardly acts arenot performed by the fighters themselves
but by those brave fans, experts, comentators, writers who know better
of the great sport than those who live it...feel it...become consumed
by it. Those who go home with pain, shame and disappointment, how
would they know what boxing is like.... its the guy in his living room with
a can of beer in his hand or a man in a tuxedo before a microphone that
really knows what boxing is all about.

Hey they are the ones we hear the most...just ask them.

[Robinson]

IFF

It has EVERYTHING to do with boxing,
he was HW champion of the world. His actions and decisions
had implications on boxing far reaching. It made boxing offcials
and governing bodies do things that were un-just and had nothing
to do with them.

Should Ali have been stripped of his title. NO.

Should Ali have been allowed to fight. Yes.

Do I hate Ali. No

Do i think that using religon to justify not serving ones
country is BS. Yes


The thread is called 'Most cowardly performance' this
could include those boxers who have raped, decided to
use drugs and all the likes.

I said ALi in regards to this subject because I just watched
an Ali documentary and it was fresh on my mind.

So please do not paint me with that one simple brush and
think I do not respect Ali as a fighter.

[squiggy]

I appreciated Robinson's first post in this thread a lot; thought the second was nonsense. Being willing to kill foreigners when your government tells you to is extremely overrated as a virtue. Refusing to do so is not cowardly.

[Robinson]

We are not here to debate the legalities of the Vietnam conflict.

Conscription for it at the time was wrong. The conflict was fought
wrong. Now it is easy to say this should never had happened.

In any case the issue is that Ali unlike thousands of US, and
Australian servicemen was able to fight of his conscription
with his fame and wealth. Yes it was a BS situation.

But he would have been no worse off than Joe Louis.

I should perhaps re state that what Ali did was not the
'MOST COWARDLY" performance. Far from perhaps. But what he did was
fresh in my mind because of a doco I just watched. Like I said
above. Sucker punching a guy at the weigh in...managers,
armchair fighters are far more cowardly than that.

At the end of the day, putting the uniform of your country
on when you have been conscripted takes alot of courage
any way you look at it.

[I Feel Fine]

I suppose, then, robinson, that you think that Robinson beating his wife, Tyson beating his wife, Tyson raping that beauty pageant chick, and Monzon throwing his girlfriend out a window were all less cowardly than what Ali did; since you saw fit to mention that above all the other shitty things boxers have done.

I don't know that Ali was right or wrong, but I don't think he did it for cowardly reasons. What I do know is that it has nothing to do with boxing.

[Robinson]

They were all pretty cowardly acts.

I listed it because as the reigning HW champion
it has obvious implications. Your an Ali fan, great you
took offence to what I wrote. Sorry, but in any case the
point I wanted to make is that outside of the ropes
fighters make more 'cowardly' decisions than inside.

That is why I think it does have something to
do with boxing. I think this thread is a tad daft
to be honest.

Cowadice is a pretty strong word and it is often
thrown around alot.

I think calling some one a coward is pretty strong
language in any case/

[I Feel Fine]

The point of the thread is seemingly to discuss fights inside the ring. But again, simply put, what a fighter does outside the ring has nothing to do with boxing. If Ali had dressed up like a woman and smuggled himself into Canada or had joined the army and won a Medal of Honor fighting against the Viet Cong neither would have had any relevance to the sport of boxing.

That said, I find it odd how you could compare Ali's decision to what those other men did.

[JDGAFFLIN]

Morrade Hakkar vs. Bernard Hopkins.
Charlie Zelenoff vs. Andrew Hartley Come on now Robinson, you know that was cowardly.

[BoxBuzz]

So the quitting on the stool scnearios are not so much the subject matter as much as who went the distance in a cowardly way?

Won't all the slugger fans start going off on any defensive boxer in the inventory if that's the infraction? Was Whitaker a coward? Zellenoff gets the nod here for sure. But how many times have we seen something like that?

[observer1]

We are not here to debate the legalities of the Vietnam conflict.

Conscription for it at the time was wrong. The conflict was fought
wrong. Now it is easy to say this should never had happened.

In any case the issue is that Ali unlike thousands of US, and
Australian servicemen was able to fight of his conscription
with his fame and wealth. Yes it was a BS situation.

But he would have been no worse off than Joe Louis.

I should perhaps re state that what Ali did was not the
'MOST COWARDLY" performance. Far from perhaps. But what he did was
fresh in my mind because of a doco I just watched. Like I said
above. Sucker punching a guy at the weigh in...managers,
armchair fighters are far more cowardly than that.

At the end of the day, putting the uniform of your country
on when you have been conscripted takes alot of courage
any way you look at it.

Robinson, i usually agree with your Posts, but im afraid i don't this time.

What Ali did was Morally correct. Ali was humiliated over and over by his so-called "Fellow" Americans just for being Black. I mean it was not a one-off thing, the entire system was corrupt !!

Why Ali want to risk his life fighting for a country that wants nothing to do with him just because his skin is dark.

I personally would have done the same had i been in Ali's boots.

Also i read something the average age for Conscription was 19-22, whereas Ali was much older. That alone is an insult. Face it, Ali would be nothing but a Tool. He said No.

You can't be a coward for standing up for what you believe..

[JDGAFFLIN]

So the quitting on the stool scnearios are not so much the subject matter as much as who went the distance in a cowardly way?

Won't all the slugger fans start going off on any defensive boxer in the inventory if that's the infraction? Was Whitaker a coward? Zellenoff gets the nod here for sure. But how many times have we seen something like that?

I think the OP posted a topic that is sure to get people upset. The school of thought is any man willing to step into a ring, and risk their health for the sake to compete in pugilism should never be called a coward.

I myself think that is too strong a term to use.

I will say over the course of me being a fan that there have been perfomances by fighters that have disgusted me because the fighter walked into the ring, knowing he had no chance to win, and basically laid down.

Collecting a paycheck without earning it to me is disrespect for the game. Michael Spinks vs. Mike Tyson. If he was that scared, and that sure he had no chance of winning, he shouldn't have fought. As a fan who paid to see that fight, his performance was cowardly. I'm not saying he is a coward, but I will say it is pure bull shit to collect the amount of cash he made for that performance. He laid down. He shouldn't have fought. He took the easy route.

Take the aforementioned Morrade Hakkar vs. Bernard Hopkins fight, for example. Is Morrade Hakkar a coward? I don't know. I do know, however, that he won no awards for heart, and courage in the ring that night. He essentially collected a pay check, without so much as putting up a fight. And to me, that is disrespectful to the sport, the other fighters, and most of all the fans that don't have the oppurtunity, skill wise to compete on a high level.

So while I won't say he is a coward, I will say his perfomance(that night) was cowardly.

I have no right to judge a fighter or label them as cowards. But with the money I spend on this sport as a fan, I damn well have the right to judge a fighters performance.

[Expug]

I dont really see that Spinx laid down.
He was intimadated Id say but he got hit with some good shots and belted out of there.
Michael could not hold off Tyson at all.

[Robinson]

He was just blown away. While he may have been
intimidated. He was still KO'd.

Tyson would have done that to alot of prize fighters
that night.

[JDGAFFLIN]

And I agree with you whole heartedly. And as I stated, I would never judge, or label a fighter a coward. Especially a Michel Spinks, who I quite enjoyed as a fighter.

However, that performance wasn't worthy of the money he earned.
That fight, or any fight with Tyson aren't really good examples, as you guys have pointed out.
Tyson was a beast in those days, so using his fights as an example doesn't really cut it. Most were intimidated by him.


Actually, I can only recall one fight I've witnessed where I can say the perfromace was cowardly. Not the fighter, but his performance that night.

The aforementioned Hakkar-Hopkins fight.

[Elton John]

I dont think Spinks lay down in a fix. He was just oeverpowered. No one who say this has ever been struck by Tyson so who are we to judge?

I would rather not comment on cowardly performances as I have not noted any in particular.

[BoxBuzz]

Any real difference between that fight and the Liston/Patterson fights? I think all four came to fight. Just happened that two of the fighters had no good answers to the other's game plan.

[Robinson]

And I agree with you whole heartedly. And as I stated, I would never judge, or label a fighter a coward. Especially a Michel Spinks, who I quite enjoyed as a fighter.

However, that performance wasn't worthy of the money he earned.
That fight, or any fight with Tyson aren't really good examples, as you guys have pointed out.
Tyson was a beast in those days, so using his fights as an example doesn't really cut it. Most were intimidated by him.


Actually, I can only recall one fight I've witnessed where I can say the perfromace was cowardly. Not the fighter, but his performance that night.

The aforementioned Hakkar-Hopkins fight.

Th performance on the night is not what the money is about, you pay for the talent, skill and
the hours, weeks, months of sacrifice and hard work in the gym. Not the 91seconds in the spot
light.

[theone]

How about Ali for not enlistin in the US Military ?

What made him any better than the 100's of thousands
of other US citizens whose lives were changed by the
war and conscription ?

He atleast knew he would not be doing anything worse
than Joe Louis or Ray Robinson did during WW2.

Ali was risking his livelihood and facing serious jail time standing up for his convictions. He could have easily conformed and as you stated been no worse of than Louis or Robinson. The former takes ALOT more courage than the latter.

[Rick Farris]

Im sorry but it is not for some loungeroom analysis to judge a man's
cowardice.

Seriously...often the hardest thing a man can feel is walking down that
long aisle past all of those people and then stepping through those
ropes.

Whether Seldon faked the knock down or how injured he was is known
by him alone. He was hit before each knock down.

Now if a man decides he has had enough, he should be allowed to
quit.

Their IS honor in this.

This is perhaps why boxin is a lot more brutal and dangerous than
MMA and other sports. Because submitting before a superior
opponent is condemned by the fans and the analysis.

I made the Seldon vs Tyson thread becaise Seldon had been
accused of going down without actually being hit.

Im not even a Seldon fan. I am however a fan of boxers and
the courage it takes to do what they do.

Great post Robinson. Perhaps the best post on any boxing forum. You never hear a boxer discuss "cowardess" in another boxer. Bad performances, yes, but not many who post on these sites have a clue what it feels like to sit in a dressing room waiting to go on. Boxing is about putting one's self beyond the natural instinct for survival. Only cowards talk about cowards.