The greatest boxers if....

[BoxBuzz]

It's an accurate statement but its significance is minimal. If I were to say "Ali beat Foreman" and someone were to interject and say "So did Shannon Briggs" it would be a correct statement, and still a frivolous and stupid one. Other Heavyweight champions may not have been undefeated, but that's because they weren't fighting dead men, old men or smaller men as their only prominent opponents. When Tyson knocks out Holmes and Spinks I don't find it particularly mind blowing either.

I repeat, "What other heavyweight champion fought everybody the press and boxing public asked him to fight and retired undefeated?" And how is it of "minimal significance" to accomplish that feat?

Answer "No Other" and it is significant, though not universally defining. Your words are pretty straight forward. My guess is that even you would grant that as impressive as that fact it has it's limits as to what one can assume based on that fact.

But it's damned impressive....if nothing else it speaks volumes to his personal judgment. Lewis may be the champion to come closest to matching his judgment on this matter.

[I Feel Fine]

It's an accurate statement but its significance is minimal. If I were to say "Ali beat Foreman" and someone were to interject and say "So did Shannon Briggs" it would be a correct statement, and still a frivolous and stupid one. Other Heavyweight champions may not have been undefeated, but that's because they weren't fighting dead men, old men or smaller men as their only prominent opponents. When Tyson knocks out Holmes and Spinks I don't find it particularly mind blowing either.

You repeat?

Marciano is the only undefeated Heavyweight champion, which I'm sure I've already said or indicated in an earlier post. I didn't start watching boxing yesterday, and I don't need to answer your condescending questions about something that is common knowledge to most boxing fans.

I repeat, it is accurate to say that Marciano was undefeated, but compared to what some other Heavyweight champions did its significance is minimal. It's something cute that gets casual fans excited, but its not the greatest achievement in the history of boxing, as some make it out to be. Who you fight is much more important, not to mention that Marciano almost lost to Walcott and to Charles, and got knocked down by Moore. If Ali had ever been dropped by a Light Heavyweight we would never hear the end of it.

[raylawpc]

It's an accurate statement but its significance is minimal. If I were to say "Ali beat Foreman" and someone were to interject and say "So did Shannon Briggs" it would be a correct statement, and still a frivolous and stupid one. Other Heavyweight champions may not have been undefeated, but that's because they weren't fighting dead men, old men or smaller men as their only prominent opponents. When Tyson knocks out Holmes and Spinks I don't find it particularly mind blowing either.

I repeat, "What other heavyweight champion fought everybody the press and boxing public asked him to fight and retired undefeated?" And how is it of "minimal significance" to accomplish that feat?

Answer "No Other" and it is significant, though not universally defining. Your words are pretty straight forward. My guess is that even you would grant that as impressive as that fact it has it's limits as to what one can assume based on that fact.

But it's damned impressive....if nothing else it speaks volumes to his personal judgment. Lewis may be the champion to come closest to matching his judgment on this matter.

I never said it was univerally defining. What I said was in response to the earlier comment that "everybody loses." Marciano didn't. Its a historical fact.

[raylawpc]

It's an accurate statement but its significance is minimal. If I were to say "Ali beat Foreman" and someone were to interject and say "So did Shannon Briggs" it would be a correct statement, and still a frivolous and stupid one. Other Heavyweight champions may not have been undefeated, but that's because they weren't fighting dead men, old men or smaller men as their only prominent opponents. When Tyson knocks out Holmes and Spinks I don't find it particularly mind blowing either.

You repeat?

Marciano is the only undefeated Heavyweight champion, which I'm sure I've already said or indicated in an earlier post. I didn't start watching boxing yesterday, and I don't need to answer your condescending questions about something that is common knowledge to most boxing fans.

I repeat, it is accurate to say that Marciano was undefeated, but compared to what some other Heavyweight champions did its significance is minimal. It's something cute that gets casual fans excited, but its not the greatest achievement in the history of boxing, as some make it out to be. Who you fight is much more important, not to mention that Marciano almost lost to Walcott and to Charles, and got knocked down by Moore. If Ali had ever been dropped by a Light Heavyweight we would never hear the end of it.

Okay.

[Nile4000]

Well this discussion hinges on "potential". Which many of us fall short of.

Greg Page comes to mind. Maybe Dokes as well. Two guys who perhaps had it in them but couldn't quite "mine the gold". I wonder if it was because it was in the wake of the "golden era" and neither could find the motivation to do their best?

It's a mystery.

Page didn't train, and subconsciously didn't wan't to be a figher.Dokes never took the time to fully learn how to fight.

[The Great John L]

Dokes never took the time to fully learn how to fight.

Dokes training habits and discipline were extremely poor as well. And most would say that he could fight pretty well. He definitely should have done more with his natural ability, but I think all of that can be tied back to his lack of discipline.

[dempseyfire]

It's an accurate statement but its significance is minimal. If I were to say "Ali beat Foreman" and someone were to interject and say "So did Shannon Briggs" it would be a correct statement, and still a frivolous and stupid one. Other Heavyweight champions may not have been undefeated, but that's because they weren't fighting dead men, old men or smaller men as their only prominent opponents. When Tyson knocks out Holmes and Spinks I don't find it particularly mind blowing either.

You repeat?

Marciano is the only undefeated Heavyweight champion, which I'm sure I've already said or indicated in an earlier post. I didn't start watching boxing yesterday, and I don't need to answer your condescending questions about something that is common knowledge to most boxing fans.

I repeat, it is accurate to say that Marciano was undefeated, but compared to what some other Heavyweight champions did its significance is minimal. It's something cute that gets casual fans excited, but its not the greatest achievement in the history of boxing, as some make it out to be. Who you fight is much more important, not to mention that Marciano almost lost to Walcott and to Charles, and got knocked down by Moore. If Ali had ever been dropped by a Light Heavyweight we would never hear the end of it.

Henry Cooper weighed about 180 lbs. Archie Moore holds the record of the most KOs of any fighter in history.

Point being, it's rather pointless to denigrate Marciano b/c he got dropped for a short count vs Archie Moore.

Marciano got a bad cut vs Charles but was well ahead on the scorecards.

I don't think it's the, or in the running, of being the 'greatest' achievement in boxing history, but to say its 'significance is minimal' is rather off the mark. Marciano's record in itself warrants a top 8 placement among the top HW champs of all time at the least.

[dr_devious]

Eubank if he had a higher punch output.

Are you sure about this one? Chris Eubank, great chin, decent power and skills. However he struggled against some real dross e.g. Ray Close draw and split decision. He was never the same after the second Watson fight, which was when his career started to go downhill. I'd never have him down as an all time great though even if he threw more punches

[Nile4000]

Dokes never took the time to fully learn how to fight.

Dokes training habits and discipline were extremely poor as well. And most would say that he could fight pretty well. He definitely should have done more with his natural ability, but I think all of that can be tied back to his lack of discipline.

True, I feel his drug problem was a major problem.From what I've heard, he was hard to deal with in the amateurs, had to be straightened out by a certain amateur star.

[I Feel Fine]

Henry Cooper weighed about 180 lbs. Archie Moore holds the record of the most KOs of any fighter in history.

Point being, it's rather pointless to denigrate Marciano b/c he got dropped for a short count vs Archie Moore.

Marciano got a bad cut vs Charles but was well ahead on the scorecards.

I don't think it's the, or in the running, of being the 'greatest' achievement in boxing history, but to say its 'significance is minimal' is rather off the mark. Marciano's record in itself warrants a top 8 placement among the top HW champs of all time at the least.

Yes, and we certainly never hear anything about the Henry Cooper knockdown.

Cooper was not a Light Heavyweight, never fought at the Light Heavyweight limit, was a career Heavyweight and weighed 185 1/2 which is well above the Light Heavyweight limit, which most boxing fans would be aware of. Archie Moore was a former Middleweight and Marciano was a mature 32 year old Heavyweight champion, not a skinny 21 year old. My point was simply that going through weak opposition is one thing, but to struggle with them as Marciano did at times is damaging to the notion that what he did was so outstanding.

I've seen Marciano-Charles II, so I don't need your little description.

I stand by my statement that Marciano's 49-0 is of minimal significance compared to the achievmenets of other Heavyweights. It's not something that I look at and ponder about whether or not others could have done it. And I do place Marciano in the top 8.

[raylawpc]

If you've seen it, how do you come to the conclusion that Marciano "almost lost" to Charles. Charles was down in the second and 8th, and hadn't picked up more than a round on any scorecard. And post-bout interviews with the ringside physician and referee revealed that they had no intention of stopping the fight because of the cut.

For the record, Moore weighed 188 when he fought Marciano - only 1/4 pound less than the champ.

[I Feel Fine]

If you've seen it, how do you come to the conclusion that Marciano "almost lost" to Charles. Charles was down in the second and 8th, and hadn't picked up more than a round on any scorecard. And post-bout interviews with the ringside physician and referee revealed that they had no intention of stopping the fight because of the cut.

For the record, Moore weighed 188 when he fought Marciano - only 1/4 pound less than the champ.

I'm aware of what the weights were, but Moore was at his best at Light Heavyweight. If Moore hypothetically fought Thomas Hearns in a fight, they could both be 175 ibs, Tommy would even be taller than Moore, but it wouldn't be Tommy's best weight class, if you see what I mean.

I've heard different stories that the referee would have stopped it if Charles had survived the round. The first fight was also close, I've only seen parts of that first fight but to my understanding Rocky pulled it out in the late rounds.

[raylawpc]

If you've seen it, how do you come to the conclusion that Marciano "almost lost" to Charles. Charles was down in the second and 8th, and hadn't picked up more than a round on any scorecard. And post-bout interviews with the ringside physician and referee revealed that they had no intention of stopping the fight because of the cut.

For the record, Moore weighed 188 when he fought Marciano - only 1/4 pound less than the champ.

I'm aware of what the weights were, but Moore was at his best at Light Heavyweight Heavyweight. If Moore hypothetically fought Thomas Hearns in a fight, they could both be 175 ibs, Tommy would even be taller than Moore, but it wouldn't be Tommy's best weight class, if you see what I mean.

I've heard different stories that the referee would have stopped it if Charles had survived the round. The first fight was also close, I've only seen parts of that first fight but to my understanding Rocky pulled it out in the late rounds.

I don't have a quote from the referee. I thought that I did. I do have a quote from the ringside physician, Dr. Alexander Schiff, who said two days after the bout: "I wouldn't have stopped it for the cut. This was a championship fight. Even though in twenty-nine years of treating boxers I had never seen the nostril torn right through, I knew Rocky was not too hurt to continue with a cut of that type." Boston Post, 9-19-1954, p. 34.

[granberry]

. . . Moore was at his best at Light Heavyweight Heavyweight.

Archie Moore scored KO's over the following heavyweights :

Alejandro Lavorante
Howard King
Pete Rademacher
Willie Besmanoff
Roger Rischer
Bert Whitehurst
Bob Baker
Jimmy Bivins(3 times)
Phil Muscato

Moore won decisions over

Nino Valdez
Curtis Hatchetman Sheppard

[BoxBuzz]

He also KO'd Holman Willams, Bob Satterfield, Big Boy and Shorty Hogue.

And just like granberry he played with John Thomas, But in Archie's case it was a boxing match and Archie knocked John out as well.

[I Feel Fine]

. . . Moore was at his best at Light Heavyweight

Archie Moore scored KO's over the following heavyweights:

Alejandro Lavorante
Howard King
Pete Rademacher
Willie Besmanoff
Roger Rischer
Bert Whitehurst
Bob Baker
Jimmy Bivins(3 times)
Phil Muscato

Moore won decisions over

Nino Valdez
Curtis Hatchetman Sheppard

Yes. And my statement still stands.

[granberry]

Stay off the drugs, buzz.

[dempseyfire]

. . . Moore was at his best at Light Heavyweight

Archie Moore scored KO's over the following heavyweights:

Alejandro Lavorante
Howard King
Pete Rademacher
Willie Besmanoff
Roger Rischer
Bert Whitehurst
Bob Baker
Jimmy Bivins(3 times)
Phil Muscato

Moore won decisions over

Nino Valdez
Curtis Hatchetman Sheppard

Yes. And my statement still stands.

Even if you rank him best at 175 (as I do) there is no denying that Moore was a legitimate Heavyweight . . he beat far better comp than Toney or Byrd and was a very muscular and fit 185 lbs.

[BoxBuzz]

Stay off the drugs, buzz.

Well I'll keep that in mind if I'm ever tempted.

However my advice to you is just the opposite. And the timing of your meds is critical! Always read the label and take as directed!

[granberry]

'moderator' buzz enables collins and crew to trash every thread I start

(and joins in himself)

then deletes my posts

and leaves the trash from collins and crew

and LOCKS the thread in that state.

buzz has done that with the last four threads I started.

Nice toilet you are 'moderating' here, buzz.

[BoxBuzz]

granberry, It's good to get your feedback. I have no quarrel with the moderator that locked your threads. And yes I have on occasion gone back and attempted to clean up some bickering in some threads and in those cases I was not picking on just your contributions.

You and I will have no further public discussions. I trust that will be satisfactory. I can offer no other option at this time.

Adios Amigo!

[ebeneezer]

Are you dating Terap or something Buzz?

Why do allow this twat to troll this forum and insult you with impunity?

[granberry]

granberry, It's good to get your feedback. I have no quarrel with the moderator that locked your threads. And yes I have on occasion gone back and attempted to clean up some bickering in some threads and in those cases I was not picking on just your contributions.

You and I will have no further public discussions. I trust that will be satisfactory. I can offer no other option at this time.

Adios Amigo!

But you will continue to enable collins and crew to trash every thread I start

and then join in gleefully yourself)

then delete my posts

and leave the trash from collins and crew

and LOCK the thread in that state.

And of course you will enable collins stooge ebeneezer to follow me around boxrec and post juvenile non-boxing posts after mine each time I post

because you are so concerned about the "forum rules" on boxrec.
.

[Collins2000]

Are you dating Terap or something Buzz?

Why do allow this twat to troll this forum and insult you with impunity?

Buzz is simply suffering from battered wife syndrome.

Don't worry, he'll call in Anton soon to do the job he doesn't have the nads to do himself.

[Collins2000]

'moderator' buzz enables collins and crew to trash every thread I start

They were already trash the moment you started them, terap. The only good part was that bit about Mays that you cut and pasted from Eastside. The rest was just bitter gibberish.