Most cowardly performance?

[Robinson]

I was 16, but I do not remember anyone backing Holy. No one in the
media or on the street.

Bruno looked sick and frightened in that second fight.
Tyson 2 seemed to intimidate fighters more than
his first version. The legend had set in more it seemed.

[Ezzard]

I agree with Collins. I never thought a puffed up Cruiser would beat Tyson. Even in Holyfield's prime I really couldn't see him winning.

Tyson (no matter what the fans say) looked as good as ever against Bruno etc... I thought the Holy fight would be a bit of a farce like the Spinks fight. people over-hyping Tyson for beating a man smaller than himself. I always thought Lewis and Bowe were the men to take Tyson. He didn't seem to like bigger men.

Holyfield could also look ordinary in some fights. The Bert Cooper fight made me think he couldn't handle a similarly proportioned, but far superior, fighter...

Question for Terry D... It was the Holyfield fights that made me see Tyson as being mentally weak. There were a few smaller signs earlier on but things i only really saw in hindsight. What was it that tipped you off?

[Ezzard]

Tyson in Holyfield II is possibly the most cowardly performance.

[Ambling Alp]

Yeah, I don't think Bruno fought cowardly at all in their 2nd fight either. He was trying, he was just outgunned by a much faster and better fighter. Tyson was in shape physically and mentally.
I don't know about size being the main reason that Tyson wouldn't take on Lewis or Bowe. Tyson did beat several big fighters in his career.
Bowe had recently looked bad in the Golota fight so Tyson may not have been worried about him. Lewis had just barely beaten Mercer, so Tyson probably thought he could take him. (Of course, who knows what Tyson is thinking!)

One thing that you have to wonder about is if Tyson would have beaten Holyfield the first time as expected, if he would have fought Bowe or Lewis next, or if he would taken on lesser opponents.

I thought Holyfield could beat him had they fought when they were supposed to. It would have been a great fight.
When they finally fought in 1996, I didn't like Holyfield's chances because he looked like he was washed up. There really wasn't that much ecitement for this fight because everyone thought Tyson would blow him out early. That was a pretty good fight. Tyson actually fought pretty well until he started to fade in the later rounds.
The rematch was pretty disappointing. Tyson seemed to just be there for a quick knockout and after that didn't happen he quit. That certainly could be called cowardly.

[Collins2000]

Yeah, I don't think Bruno fought cowardly at all in their 2nd fight either.

Really? He looked petrified to me and did nothing to try and hold onto his title.

[I Feel Fine]

Check out Seldon versus McCall, he took some big whacks that night. I don't think he is a coward, in quitting he committed a cowardly act but then again how many of us have had to face the type of stress he was facing versus Tyson?

I think there is a difference between committing a cowardly act and being a coward. The odd boxer may committ a cowardly act (hitting someone after the fight) but by definition they are not cowards.

I agree. Sort of like Duran against Leonard. Taking Duran's whole career into consideration, he could not reasonably be called a coward by any standard.

Shitting his pants"? No, he did not, and I did not imply that he did. But Duran had fought dancers before. This was one he couldn't catch up to, who had power (unlike Bizzarro) and Duran probably wasn't in the best of shape. Quitting when there's nothing seriously wrong with you other than frustration and lack of conditioning would be considered cowardly by many champions, I would imagine. Duran certainly didn't get too much praise for machismo in the immediate aftermath of "No Mas." But, that said, it would be impossible to call him a coward, even if that was a cowardly decision by the standards of championship boxing. You don't have to shit your pants to make that kind of decision. As has been touched on in this thread, there is (or should be) a distinction between fear and cowardice; Patterson was scared shitless but still tried to fight Liston, Duran wasn't scared of Leonard but he didn't bother continuing once it seemed clear that he was going to lose. But, with that said, when taking Duran's career as a whole we know that he was not a coward; hence I agree with your distinction between the "cowardly act" and the "coward", I've always felt that those things should be distinguished.

[I Feel Fine]

"Shitting his pants"? No, he did not, and I did not imply that he did. But Duran had fought dancers before. This was one he couldn't catch up to, who had power (unlike Bizzarro) and Duran probably wasn't in the best of shape. Quitting when there's nothing seriously wrong with you other than frustration and lack of conditioning would be considered cowardly by many champions, I would imagine. Duran certainly didn't get too much praise for machismo in the immediate after math of "No Mas." But, that said, it would be impossible to call him a coward, even if that was a cowardly decision by the standards of championship boxing. You don't have to shit your pants to make that kind of decision. As has been touched on in this thread, there is (or should be) a distinction between fear and cowardice; Patterson was scared shitless but still tried to fight Liston, Duran wasn't scared of Leonard but he didn't bother continuing once it seemed clear that he was going to lose. But, with that said, when taking Duran's career as a whole we know that he was not a coward; hence I agree with your distinction between the "cowardly act" and the "coward", I've always felt that those things should be distinguished.

It was a joke, a pop at the theory that he bailed because he needed to go for a crap.

Oh, I see. Nevermind. And yeah, I think I've heard that story.

As for Holyfield, I've heard that too. I've heard a story that during the amateurs some of the boxers were playing pool and it was Holyfield's turn, but Tyson continued playing. Holyfield stood up to Tyson and told Mike that it was his turn, and Mike supposedly backed down and let Holyfield play.

[bollox]

Here we go again. Using boxing and cowardice in the same sentence is abysmal

[Collins2000]

Here we go again. Using boxing and cowardice in the same sentence is abysmal

bollocks

[overhand_right]

The difference between Bruno and Seldon is that whilst both were frightened of Tyson and coped poorly with the pressure of defending their world titles, Bruno actually took his licks and Tyson was forced to really bang him out of there.

Seldon on the other hand got out of there without ever really taking a serious dig.

[overhand_right]

I like Ali as a fighter and like all men, feel that he was
as complex as the next. But his not enlisting seems to
be viewed these days as being heroic and galant. To me
that is not the truth.

Sure I was wrong for suggesting it was the 'most cowardly
performance' and I admit this. I threw it on the table
as one that could be viewed outside the box.

Kym

If my country saw me as a second class citizen and a god damn nig#er, and someone who couldn't even drink in certain bars or enter places through the front door, yet also expected me to go out to Nam for them in whatever capacity, i too would absolutely refuse to do so.

I can't believe anyone could actually question Ali not going to Nam - why the hell would he? For what?

[bjermaine]

I like Ali as a fighter and like all men, feel that he was
as complex as the next. But his not enlisting seems to
be viewed these days as being heroic and galant. To me
that is not the truth.

Sure I was wrong for suggesting it was the 'most cowardly
performance' and I admit this. I threw it on the table
as one that could be viewed outside the box.

Kym

If my country saw me as a second class citizen and a god damn nig#er, and someone who couldn't even drink in certain bars or enter places through the front door, yet also expected me to go out to Nam for them in whatever capacity, i too would absolutely refuse to do so.

I can't believe anyone could actually question Ali not going to Nam - why the hell would he? For what?

word!

[granberry]

If my country saw me as a second class citizen and a god damn nig#er, and someone who couldn't even drink in certain bars or enter places through the front door, yet also expected me to go out to Nam for them in whatever capacity, i too would absolutely refuse to do so.

I can't believe anyone could actually question Ali not going to Nam - why the hell would he? For what?

You should study up before you post reeking propaganda.

Ali would never have gone to vietnam.
He would have boxed exhibitions for the troops, just as Joe Louis did in World War II.

Please name for us the 'bars' and 'places' Ali 'could not enter by the front door'.

LOL

[bjermaine]

Here we go again. Using boxing and cowardice in the same sentence is abysmal

i admit that you're probably right. i started this thread to see what would be put here. the thing is that in pro sports you're paid to perform. boxing just happens to be the most difficult sport. people pay a lot of money and i think this is a fair question when a fighter doesn't deliver on the goods.

i forgot about tyson vs holyfield II. that might be the most cowardly ever.

[overhand_right]

You should study up before you post reeking propaganda.

Ali would never have gone to vietnam.
He would have boxed exhibitions for the troops, just as Joe Louis did in World War II.

Please name for us the 'bars' and 'places' Ali 'could not enter by the front door'.

LOL

Duh - i am aware Ali was not going to be put in harms way - my point is why would he do anything in Nam for a country where he was treated like crap?

If you want to pretend 60s America was a great place for a black man, you do that. Everybody else knows better.

[bjermaine]

If my country saw me as a second class citizen and a god damn nig#er, and someone who couldn't even drink in certain bars or enter places through the front door, yet also expected me to go out to Nam for them in whatever capacity, i too would absolutely refuse to do so.

I can't believe anyone could actually question Ali not going to Nam - why the hell would he? For what?

You should study up before you post reeking propaganda.

Ali would never have gone to vietnam.
He would have boxed exhibitions for the troops, just as Joe Louis did in World War II.

Please name for us the 'bars' and 'places' Ali 'could not enter by the front door'.

LOL

thanks for the post general granberry. not only is he a boxing expert but also a military strategist.

[granberry]

If my country saw me as a second class citizen and a god damn nig#er, and someone who couldn't even drink in certain bars or enter places through the front door, yet also expected me to go out to Nam for them in whatever capacity, i too would absolutely refuse to do so.

I can't believe anyone could actually question Ali not going to Nam - why the hell would he? For what?

You should study up before you post reeking propaganda.

Ali would never have gone to vietnam.
He would have boxed exhibitions for the troops, just as Joe Louis did in World War II.

Please name for us the 'bars' and 'places' Ali 'could not enter by the front door'.

LOL

thanks for the post general granberry. not only is he a boxing expert but also a military strategist.

thanks for the post bjermaine. Not only are you a boxing expert but also a US-Hater and a propaganda regurgitator.

[Collins2000]

Surely this trolling by granberry has gone on long enough.

Now he wants us to believe that there was no segregation in America in the 60's.

What an idiot.

[bjermaine]

[thanks for the post bjermaine. Not only are you a boxing expert but also a US-Hater and a propaganda regurgitator.

US hater? that's pretty funny. dude, how does it feel for you being one of the most racist people in the US (i'm assuming you live in the US), and we are probably getting ready to have a black president? i'm sure you are thrilled. we'll probably have to read how obama rigged the election and how mccain wasn't at 100%.

[granberry]

If my country saw me as a second class citizen and a god damn nig#er, and someone who couldn't even drink in certain bars or enter places through the front door, yet also expected me to go out to Nam for them in whatever capacity, i too would absolutely refuse to do so.

I can't believe anyone could actually question Ali not going to Nam - why the hell would he? For what?

overhand right is now going to name for us the 'bars' and 'places' Ali 'could not enter by the front door'.

[granberry]

Surely this trolling by granberry has gone on long enough.

Now he wants us to believe that there was no segregation in America in the 60's.

What an idiot.

buzz' boy, collins, the poisonous feminine snake of boxrec, shows up with another non-boxing, ad hominem post.

collins has never made a post on the subject of boxing.

And he NEVER will.

[kikibalt]

[thanks for the post bjermaine. Not only are you a boxing expert but also a US-Hater and a propaganda regurgitator.

US hater? that's pretty funny. dude, how does it feel for you being one of the most racist people in the US (i'm assuming you live in the US), and we are probably getting ready to have a black president? i'm sure you are thrilled. we'll probably have to read how obama rigged the election and how mccain wasn't at 100%.

Fyi.....its MacBush.....

[granberry]

US hater? that's pretty funny. dude, how does it feel for you being one of the most racist people in the US (i'm assuming you live in the US), and we are probably getting ready to have a black president? i'm sure you are thrilled. we'll probably have to read how obama rigged the election and how mccain wasn't at 100%.

bjermaine swallows racist propaganda whole

and then regurgitates it back out on boxrec.

[overhand_right]

If my country saw me as a second class citizen and a god damn nig#er, and someone who couldn't even drink in certain bars or enter places through the front door, yet also expected me to go out to Nam for them in whatever capacity, i too would absolutely refuse to do so.

I can't believe anyone could actually question Ali not going to Nam - why the hell would he? For what?

overhand right is now going to name for us the 'bars' and 'places' Ali 'could not enter by the front door'.

Sweet jesus.

You actually expect me to name specific bars down south in 60s America....?

Get a life old boy. If you want to paint a picture that it was all dandy for a black man in 60s America then do that. I know your routine by now-- 'its all a conspiracy, you're an idiot' ad infinitum *yawn* dont you have anything better to do with your life than pick pathetic fights on the boxers of the past forum?

Its no wonder you've turned out to be such a c-unt when you're existance is no narrow, pointless and obviously unfulfilling.

[granberry]

If my country saw me as a second class citizen and a god damn nig#er, and someone who couldn't even drink in certain bars or enter places through the front door, yet also expected me to go out to Nam for them in whatever capacity, i too would absolutely refuse to do so.

I can't believe anyone could actually question Ali not going to Nam - why the hell would he? For what?

overhand right is now going to name for us the 'bars' and 'places' Ali 'could not enter by the front door'.

Sweet jesus.

You actually expect me to name specific bars down south in 60s America....?

Get a life old boy. If you want to paint a picture that it was all dandy for a black man in 60s America then do that. I know your routine by now-- 'its all a conspiracy, you're an idiot' ad infinitum *yawn* dont you have anything better to do with your life than pick pathetic fights on the boxers of the past forum?

Its no wonder you've turned out to be such a c-unt when you're existance is no narrow, pointless and obviously unfulfilling.

'moderator' leaves this trash on boxrec

while he deletes my posts right and l;eft.

Nice toilet you have here, buzz.