I'm sorry to keep belaboring this question, but I still am not satisfied with answers I've been getting.
For purposes of making my own web site as accurate and informative as possible, as well as trying to pin-point accurate details for purposes of the BoxRec database, I am still trying to determine when "Panama" Al Brown won the IBU bantam title and the NBA title. I'm hoping someone can point to the exact bouts when these events occurred. Then I'll try to find contemporary newspaper accounts to confirm.
When I brought up this subject once before in the old forum, Mike DeLisa emailed to me the answer that Brown won the NBA title with his June 18, 1929 bout -- but, as I claim in my web site, newspaper research does not support this. In fact, it's to the contrary.
I went back to the local university library yesterday, located the article I cite in my web site, printed and scanned it, and linked to it. It from the July 11, 1929 THE WORLD newspaper (NYC) -- not yet a month after that Queensboro bout when Brown supposedly won both the NYSAC and NBA titles.
Here's one result of my research. (I've superimposed one JPG over the other for the sake of simplicity, but nothing else has been altered digitally.)
http://www.geocities.com/boxofdaylight/BrownNBA3.JPG
Am I missing the boat entirely here?
Ric
Al Brown Query
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If one personally reads the articles from THE NEW YORK TIMES and THE WORLD published at the time, it is clear that, at most, the Gregorio bout was for the NYSAC title only -- although the manager for British Bantam Champion Teddy Baldock said Baldock had just as right to be called the world champion. As I write in my web site, there was some dispute as to what Al actually won that June 18 evening, as reported in these papers. My research of Al's first few bouts after the Gregorio one never mention that he is the undisputed world champion, or even that he is a world champion at all. It is only later that this gets mentioned. (I challenge anyone to read these papers and then come back to dispute my account of what those papers report. 
)
According to THE RING, August 1931, Al is definitely the NBA bantam king by then. So we know that he was the NBA from at least 1931-34. I'm thinking it wasn't until about 1930 that he won the NBA title. Maybe 1931.
As for the IBU title, Al's manager, Dave Lumiasky informed reporters - when he and Al returned from Europe in May 1929 - that Al had defeated Dom Bernasconi (the IBU bantam champ) in Madrid. He said, in so many words, that Brown thus had won the IBU title. But, during this same interview, he also claimed that Al was the NBA champ. But that July 11 THE WORLD article, if accurate (as it appears to be) says that he <i>wasn't</i> the NBA champ, and the Illiois Boxing Commission criticized Lumiasky for spreading this lie. So, was Lumiasky also lying about Al winning the IBU title? I dunno.
It gets better. According to p. 46 of the 1934 EVERLAST BOXING RECORD, in an article listing all the world bantam champs since 1887: "Up to the end of 1931 there was no undisputed and fully acknowledged bantam champion, but there were a half dozen fighters claiming supremancy." It goes on to say that Al did not win the undisputed title until June 18, 1932, when he defeated Eugene Huat in Paris! Was this when he actually won the IBU title -- so that, in conjunction with his NYSAC & NBA titles, he finally won the undisputed title?
But did he still have the NYSAC world bantam title when he fought Huat in 1932? In 1931, according to credible sources, the NYSAC withdrew its support for Brown as the world champ, citing his preference of fighting in Europe. [See "An Illustrated History of Boxing" by Nat Fleischer & Sam Andre (updated by Nigel Collins)(1997) at p. 376.]
These are all just historical details I'm trying to sort out. (My area of interest is the flys, bantams and feathers of the 1920s and 1930s.) And this is all stuff I cover in my web site.
http://home.talkcity.com/BleacherSt/Climb.htm
(copy & paste this URL into your address bar)
So, without confirmation otherwise, I do not accept the long-held notion that Al was the undisputed world bantam champ from June 18, 1929 to his June 1, 1935 bout with Baltasar Sangchili. It appears he definitely held some version of the title during this time (IBU, NYSAC, NBA), but not necessarily all three at once. I'm waiting to be informed otherwise. (I don't care what the International Boxing Hall of Fame writes in its official book. ;:)
ric
)According to THE RING, August 1931, Al is definitely the NBA bantam king by then. So we know that he was the NBA from at least 1931-34. I'm thinking it wasn't until about 1930 that he won the NBA title. Maybe 1931.
As for the IBU title, Al's manager, Dave Lumiasky informed reporters - when he and Al returned from Europe in May 1929 - that Al had defeated Dom Bernasconi (the IBU bantam champ) in Madrid. He said, in so many words, that Brown thus had won the IBU title. But, during this same interview, he also claimed that Al was the NBA champ. But that July 11 THE WORLD article, if accurate (as it appears to be) says that he <i>wasn't</i> the NBA champ, and the Illiois Boxing Commission criticized Lumiasky for spreading this lie. So, was Lumiasky also lying about Al winning the IBU title? I dunno.
It gets better. According to p. 46 of the 1934 EVERLAST BOXING RECORD, in an article listing all the world bantam champs since 1887: "Up to the end of 1931 there was no undisputed and fully acknowledged bantam champion, but there were a half dozen fighters claiming supremancy." It goes on to say that Al did not win the undisputed title until June 18, 1932, when he defeated Eugene Huat in Paris! Was this when he actually won the IBU title -- so that, in conjunction with his NYSAC & NBA titles, he finally won the undisputed title?
But did he still have the NYSAC world bantam title when he fought Huat in 1932? In 1931, according to credible sources, the NYSAC withdrew its support for Brown as the world champ, citing his preference of fighting in Europe. [See "An Illustrated History of Boxing" by Nat Fleischer & Sam Andre (updated by Nigel Collins)(1997) at p. 376.]
These are all just historical details I'm trying to sort out. (My area of interest is the flys, bantams and feathers of the 1920s and 1930s.) And this is all stuff I cover in my web site.
http://home.talkcity.com/BleacherSt/Climb.htm
(copy & paste this URL into your address bar)
So, without confirmation otherwise, I do not accept the long-held notion that Al was the undisputed world bantam champ from June 18, 1929 to his June 1, 1935 bout with Baltasar Sangchili. It appears he definitely held some version of the title during this time (IBU, NYSAC, NBA), but not necessarily all three at once. I'm waiting to be informed otherwise. (I don't care what the International Boxing Hall of Fame writes in its official book. ;:)
ric
Okay -- the mystery deepens -- PRIOR to the Al Brown-Gregario fight in June 1929, the NY Times rports he is the NBA champ already. Following the fight, Ed Brown, the NBA president is quoted in an AP report from rhode Island as DENYING that the fight was an NBA title fight.
In october 1930, at the time of the Huat fight, he is reported as being "recognized in some sections as the champion"
And, Bushy Graham, who beats Greagio at 120 in Oct, is recognized as bantam champ by the PA Commission.
In october 1930, at the time of the Huat fight, he is reported as being "recognized in some sections as the champion"
And, Bushy Graham, who beats Greagio at 120 in Oct, is recognized as bantam champ by the PA Commission.
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Oops, bad address in my earlier post. It should be:
http://home.talkcity.com/BleacherSt/box ... /Climb.htm
Mike, can I get a precise date of that Ed Brown quote? Was it in the NYT? I'd like to include it in my site.
My newspaper research has taken me from late 1924 to Feb. 1929. I plan to research up to 1940, as you know. But I think at this point I'll go back and start with 1920, go to late 1924, then continue with where I left off at Feb. 1929.
Ric
http://home.talkcity.com/BleacherSt/box ... /Climb.htm
Mike, can I get a precise date of that Ed Brown quote? Was it in the NYT? I'd like to include it in my site.
My newspaper research has taken me from late 1924 to Feb. 1929. I plan to research up to 1940, as you know. But I think at this point I'll go back and start with 1920, go to late 1924, then continue with where I left off at Feb. 1929.
Ric