What were the expectations for Ali-Holmes and Ali-Berbick?

[oliverfennell]

These were slightly before my time, so I was wondering, did people think Ali had a genuine chance vs Holmes? What was the betting line? And if he won, was the expectation that he would defend the title?

Similarly, was the Berbick fight supposed to be a one-off "farewell" fight (i.e. "going out on a win") or was it supposed to be step one in a comeback? And presumably most people thought Ali would beat Berbick, even after the Holmes fight?

[HomicideHenry]

I think the mindset was "Ali's back, and he's gonna do it again," because nobody seemed to really criticize Ali anyways to begin with and nobody cared for Holmes, not because he wasn't a great fighter but because he lacked the pizazz and flare that "The Greatest" had...unfortunately for Ali after the first few seconds of the first round, it was apparent that he had nothing left and by the 10th, it was nothing short of a massacre with Holmes telling the referee to please stop the fight before he killed him.

As far as Berbick-Ali is concerned...it was a fight NOBODY wanted to see, and it was held in the Bahamas for that reason, because nobody in the USA would license him (Ali) following his brutal beating at the hands of Larry Holmes. I believe the general feeling was that everybody knew he would lose, but nobody wanted to tell him that either.

[I Feel Fine]

I heard Holmes say in an interview that most experts picked him to beat Ali. There was a lingering feeling that he might beat Holmes, perhaps as there was with some who picked Tyson to beat Lewis. It was a similar situation, Holmes had been decked by some right hands as Lewis had, and Ali, like Tyson, was still the crowd favorite. Ali did not intend the Berbick fight to be a farewell fight, but announced his retirement after he lost.

Terribly ill conceived, of course. He should have retired five years earlier.

[raylawpc]

Ali was certainly the sentimental favorite, and some guys picked him to win - or more correctly, perhaps, didn't pick him to lose. For example, I remember one magazine cover - maybe it was SI - that featured Ali on the cover with the headline: "He's Back!!!" Yet the article - while it talked about all his great comebacks, what it would mean if he was successful, etc., etc. did not pick him to win. But neither did it come right out and say he would lose.

As I recall, alot of guys were for Ali in their hearts (I wasn't one of them), but their brains knew he didn't have a snowball's chance in you-know-where. Yet they couldn't bring themselves to say he would lose.

My recollection of the atmosphere surrounding the Berbick fight is the same as Hank's: nobody wanted to see that fight. And even I - who had been rooting against Ali for years - hated to see that happen to him.

[Expug]

Does any one remember that there was some talk about Ali using some kind of diaretic or Vitaman to lose weight ?
Maybe Im wrong, but wasnt there some controversy about this as pertains to Ali not perspiring during the fight or something.

[My2Sense]

Does any one remember that there was some talk about Ali using some kind of diaretic or Vitaman to lose weight ?
Maybe Im wrong, but wasnt there some controversy about this as pertains to Ali not perspiring during the fight or something.

Yes.

Dundee said Ali used diaretics to reduce to a reasonably low, fit-looking weight.

When longshot bettors saw Ali's low weight, they took it as a sign that he must be in good shape, and a lot of late money went on Ali.

But Dundee later said "Light isn't right".

I don't know about Ali perspiring, but needless to say, diaretics are no way to lose weight.

[overhand_right]

Ali had some ailment, and a cowboy doctor within the team dangerously mis prescribed him these drugs.

It got to the point with these drugs that Ali couldn't even run days before the fight, and his morning jogs were reduced to strolls.

He lost all the weight, but lost everything else. He could of apparently been killed in the ring.

[Expug]

Thanks guys,I thought I remembered something about his rapid weight loss from this.

[Robinson]

Wasnt it Thyroid medication of some sort?

[Knucklez]

Jose Torres, whose father had Parkinsons, said that Ali was taking "el dopa", i.e. anti-Parkinsons pills.

Angelo Dundee said he was taking pills for a thyroid problem.

Others say they were dieting pills.

Either way, he was only ever going to get his head stoved in, pills or no.

[oliverfennell]

Thanks for all the answers. I've always wondered about the Berbick fight particularly, as there is virtually nothing written about it, as if it's taboo or something.

I can understand how Ali-Holmes pre-fight must have been pretty exciting. Sure, he'd lost a lot of speed in recent years, but he did, after all, retire as champion after Spinks. I suppose it would be like Lewis coming back now vs WK - many would pick him to win, but he'd be going after a very strong - albeit uncharismatic - champion.

[Robinson]

Except holmes was unbeaten, consistent and looked damned more
formidable than W Klitschko has ever looked.

[oliverfennell]

Except holmes was unbeaten, consistent and looked damned more
formidable than W Klitschko has ever looked.

Yeah, of course, but it's the best I could do by way of comparison! Lewis is the only champion since then to retire AS champion (not counting Vitali).

[I Feel Fine]

A bad version of Holmes is better than Wlad, but Holmes during those years had a couple of shaky moments. As Weaver was pummeling Holmes during their fight one of the commentators said something to the effect that "this fight is going to make Ali consider coming out of retirement." Weaver in I think his next fight went on to become the WBA belt holder, but at the time of his Holmes fight he was considered little more than a journeyman. Then the Shavers rematch was Holmes' next fight, and Holmes was again almost knocked out. It would have been silly for Ali to have thought that he could have hurt Holmes the way those two punchers did, but maybe he figured that he was much better than those two, and that if they could find a way to hurt Holmes that maybe he could too. Plus Holmes had been Ali's sparring partner, Ali talked about that before the fight; maybe he still thought of Holmes in those terms? Either way, it probably didn't matter who the champion was at the time, Ali wanted to fight again, and so he did. And since he had had so many successful comebacks, he probably wondered if he could do it again; a lot of people had that idea.

Ill conceived, but a lot of champions make that mistake, including Holmes against Tyson. Holmes seemed no less convinced than Ali had been eight years earlier that he would regain the title; but Tyson crushed Holmes and left him for dead. To be a champion you have to be a bit delusional.

[Robinson]

Except holmes was unbeaten, consistent and looked damned more
formidable than W Klitschko has ever looked.

Yeah, of course, but it's the best I could do by way of comparison! Lewis is the only champion since then to retire AS champion (not counting Vitali).

Yeah good point. :) Would be interesting to see Lennox back...how could one not
root for him

[spion]

From interviews with both Dundee and Ferdie Pachecko the story has it that after all the batteries of tests run on Ali to find out if he was fit enough to fight again against Holmes, one doctor saw he had slightly low thyroid and prescribed medication. Ali notice how he began dropping weight and he more than doubled the dosage on his own. Once Angelo Dundee got to camp and saw Ali getting trim, he figured that once again Ali was serious and was going to pull off another miracle. Ali wasn't looking great in sparring, but Muhammad often looked horrible in the gym. The night of the fight Ali was nearly completely dehydrated. He wasn't able to muster any offense and was completely fatigued. He took an initial beating From Holmes who, noticing that Ali wasn't able to fight, began to ease off and look to the ref to stop the fight. Terrible night for Ali. He was able to make a better account of himself in his next fight against Berbick at a heavier but natural weight for him.

[funso banjo baby]

the berbick fight was a complete disgrace

the fact that they didnt even have a proper bell and had to use some kind of camel horn or something was the icing on the cake

id love to no how much each fighter received

we all watched it however

the thing with Ali was that there was always an aura of magic surrounding him

he was the greatest

and he could comeback..simple as that

its very sad now but that was the power of Ali..he was a force of nature who ushered in the era of satelite tv and his face is one of the famous faces of all time

[TheOneIsHere2008]

These were slightly before my time, so I was wondering, did people think Ali had a genuine chance vs Holmes? What was the betting line? And if he won, was the expectation that he would defend the title?

Similarly, was the Berbick fight supposed to be a one-off "farewell" fight (i.e. "going out on a win") or was it supposed to be step one in a comeback? And presumably most people thought Ali would beat Berbick, even after the Holmes fight?

The expectations were that he was going to lose and there was anger at those who promoted the fight...He had a near death experience at the hands of a rank amateur like Leon Spinks two years earlier...He was a shot fighter...But they are warriors...They never know when to leave...

I think the Ali who beat Spinks in the Super Dome had enough left to go fifteen rounds with Holmes but he would have got hurt worse than in the 80 fight because Holmes would have been forced to hit him...