Who would you put Audley with in next?
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jameswilson
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jamesmcdonnell
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Agree, the only role Francis would play would be as a comparison. The guys who KO Francis seem to be on a decent European level. Those who cannot (or need rematches) seem to fall short.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Francis would be seen as a backward step, though if Audley managed to spark him, it would make something of a mockery of claiming Skelton to be a huge puncher...
Before Skelton beat him I would have suggested this as a good match, now I see it as a backwards step.
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jameswilson
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Stefan Neilson is a guy who also lost to Francis - Stefan beat him in June of last year, hardly much younger. Apparently, Francis believes he was robbed that night.jameswilson wrote:Steffen Nielsen is a guy that beat Francis (a younger and better Francis) over 10rounds, so if Warren slates him as an opponent Aud can just say well he did what Skelton did.
I can see what your saying, but FW can always say "he beat a man who took two fights to beat Francis. Why can't he follow a similar suit and beat another man who neeeded a rematch to beat Francis - Danny Williams".
I don't think Steffan Neilson is good enough.
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jamesmcdonnell
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I think what this thread shows, is that Audley's camp are going to have quite a tough time making the right matchups, it's a very common problem with fighters with a high level of talent, but little experience.
I guess what Audley needs now, is the equivalent of Lewis' fight with Gary Mason, that was the fight which for a lot of people proved beyond doubt that he was bigger than the domestic scene, because he really did a number of Mason.
The thing is, there isn't another heavyweight in this country as good as Mason was back then, the only unbeaten prospect is Skelton, which I suppose
I actually think Mesi could be Audley's equivalent, because I don't believe mesi is any better than Mason was at that stage, faster, but not better.
I guess what Audley needs now, is the equivalent of Lewis' fight with Gary Mason, that was the fight which for a lot of people proved beyond doubt that he was bigger than the domestic scene, because he really did a number of Mason.
The thing is, there isn't another heavyweight in this country as good as Mason was back then, the only unbeaten prospect is Skelton, which I suppose
I actually think Mesi could be Audley's equivalent, because I don't believe mesi is any better than Mason was at that stage, faster, but not better.
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jameswilson
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The name Rene Monse has popped up and this guy dont look half bad, we want someone who:-
1. Has stamina Monse has been 12rounds.
2. Has a good chin, Monse has never been knocked down in 15fights.
3. Has been in with good opposition, his only losss is to Luan Krasniqui the current Euro champ, and in that fight Monse knocked Krasniqui down and only lost on a majority decision.
4. Has a decent punch he has knocked Krasniqui down so he surely must have.
This guy can surely be persuaded to have a bout with Audley on May 8th.
1. Has stamina Monse has been 12rounds.
2. Has a good chin, Monse has never been knocked down in 15fights.
3. Has been in with good opposition, his only losss is to Luan Krasniqui the current Euro champ, and in that fight Monse knocked Krasniqui down and only lost on a majority decision.
4. Has a decent punch he has knocked Krasniqui down so he surely must have.
This guy can surely be persuaded to have a bout with Audley on May 8th.
Am I right in assuming from all this that you believe Audley is looking just as good as Lennox was on his way up? Because it certainly doesn't appear that way to me.jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think what this thread shows, is that Audley's camp are going to have quite a tough time making the right matchups, it's a very common problem with fighters with a high level of talent, but little experience.
I guess what Audley needs now, is the equivalent of Lewis' fight with Gary Mason, that was the fight which for a lot of people proved beyond doubt that he was bigger than the domestic scene, because he really did a number of Mason.
The thing is, there isn't another heavyweight in this country as good as Mason was back then, the only unbeaten prospect is Skelton, which I suppose
I actually think Mesi could be Audley's equivalent, because I don't believe mesi is any better than Mason was at that stage, faster, but not better.
Nor me, and although Gary Mason was undefeated I would put Williams on a par with him ability wise.Kilburn wrote:Am I right in assuming from all this that you believe Audley is looking just as good as Lennox was on his way up? Because it certainly doesn't appear that way to me.jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think what this thread shows, is that Audley's camp are going to have quite a tough time making the right matchups, it's a very common problem with fighters with a high level of talent, but little experience.
I guess what Audley needs now, is the equivalent of Lewis' fight with Gary Mason, that was the fight which for a lot of people proved beyond doubt that he was bigger than the domestic scene, because he really did a number of Mason.
The thing is, there isn't another heavyweight in this country as good as Mason was back then, the only unbeaten prospect is Skelton, which I suppose
I actually think Mesi could be Audley's equivalent, because I don't believe mesi is any better than Mason was at that stage, faster, but not better.
brilliant comparison and one that sadly didnt enter my limited small mindstujones wrote:Nor me, and although Gary Mason was undefeated I would put Williams on a par with him ability wise.Kilburn wrote:Am I right in assuming from all this that you believe Audley is looking just as good as Lennox was on his way up? Because it certainly doesn't appear that way to me.jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think what this thread shows, is that Audley's camp are going to have quite a tough time making the right matchups, it's a very common problem with fighters with a high level of talent, but little experience.
I guess what Audley needs now, is the equivalent of Lewis' fight with Gary Mason, that was the fight which for a lot of people proved beyond doubt that he was bigger than the domestic scene, because he really did a number of Mason.
The thing is, there isn't another heavyweight in this country as good as Mason was back then, the only unbeaten prospect is Skelton, which I suppose
I actually think Mesi could be Audley's equivalent, because I don't believe mesi is any better than Mason was at that stage, faster, but not better.
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jamesmcdonnell
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I think that Audley has better movement and combination punching than Lewis did early on, but his punchpower is not as good. I think Audley compares favourably with Lewis for the number of fights he has had.
When he puts his punches together, Audley looks very good indeed, and he doesn't look as awkward as Lewis in some respects.
Lest we forget, Lewis was being soundly outboxed by Bruno early in his career, and was tagged again and again by the slower man before finding the shots to turn out his lights. I watched that fight again the other night, and it was quite shocking how easily Bruno was finding the target.
Lewis carried some very amateurish tendencies into the ring with him early in his career, but his power and athelticism allowed those flaws to be glossed over..
When he puts his punches together, Audley looks very good indeed, and he doesn't look as awkward as Lewis in some respects.
Lest we forget, Lewis was being soundly outboxed by Bruno early in his career, and was tagged again and again by the slower man before finding the shots to turn out his lights. I watched that fight again the other night, and it was quite shocking how easily Bruno was finding the target.
Lewis carried some very amateurish tendencies into the ring with him early in his career, but his power and athelticism allowed those flaws to be glossed over..
The Bruno fight was a bad one for Lewis, but part of that problem was Pepe "Right hand" Correra. I actually think the Rudduck performance actually set Lewis back a few years, because Lewis began to believe his own hype (and so did Pepe).jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think that Audley has better movement and combination punching than Lewis did early on, but his punchpower is not as good. I think Audley compares favourably with Lewis for the number of fights he has had.
When he puts his punches together, Audley looks very good indeed, and he doesn't look as awkward as Lewis in some respects.
Lest we forget, Lewis was being soundly outboxed by Bruno early in his career, and was tagged again and again by the slower man before finding the shots to turn out his lights. I watched that fight again the other night, and it was quite shocking how easily Bruno was finding the target.
Lewis carried some very amateurish tendencies into the ring with him early in his career, but his power and athelticism allowed those flaws to be glossed over..
The McCall fight was a blessing in many senses, because Lewis got rid of Correra. Correra ruined Leonard in the rematch with Hearns aswell. That was a fight the Leonard should have won beyond doubt cause Hearns was gone from the 6th to the 11th (after being nailed in the 5th). Pepe was screaming for Leonard to go for the one-punch KO. This tactic cost Leonard some of the rounds that basic boxing would have put in the bank.
Watch a young pre Mason Lewis, and for me that was the best version of Lewis - yes the very best. Athletic, lightening fast, with great footwork and movement. He won the European title at a canter and hammered Mason.
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jamesmcdonnell
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As I said, his atheltic gifts and power allowed him to gloss over flaws which occured when he slowed dramatically in his early 30's.
Lewis was a good deal more slight than Audley when he started out, he weighed around 235
Audley looks solid and tight at 245, and I cannot see him getting below 240 at all, he's a bigger guy than Lewis in frame size.
Lewis may have looked more dramatic than Audley, but he never had the widest of punch selections. He always tended to rely on his chief weapons which were his jab, right cross and straight right, and uppercut.
Agreed, his hammering of Mason was pretty impressive, Mason had a bloody good chin, and lewis pasted the shite out of him, but Mason was also made for Lewis, slow and lumbering with punches that started and ended in two different time zones.
It was like a gorilla on valium against a chimpanzee on speed, the Gorilla might have the bombs and the physical strength, but the chimp is gonna batter it up in the end.
Lewis really was fast then, but that speed didn't last long, and once he filled out he slowed down a lot.
Agreed though, without the loss to McCall, Lewis would never have developed into the dominant heavyweight, Correa was a man who got to train Lewis on the strength of his association with Leonard, and wasn't up to the job of training a heavyweight champion.
Lewis was a good deal more slight than Audley when he started out, he weighed around 235
Audley looks solid and tight at 245, and I cannot see him getting below 240 at all, he's a bigger guy than Lewis in frame size.
Lewis may have looked more dramatic than Audley, but he never had the widest of punch selections. He always tended to rely on his chief weapons which were his jab, right cross and straight right, and uppercut.
Agreed, his hammering of Mason was pretty impressive, Mason had a bloody good chin, and lewis pasted the shite out of him, but Mason was also made for Lewis, slow and lumbering with punches that started and ended in two different time zones.
It was like a gorilla on valium against a chimpanzee on speed, the Gorilla might have the bombs and the physical strength, but the chimp is gonna batter it up in the end.
Lewis really was fast then, but that speed didn't last long, and once he filled out he slowed down a lot.
Agreed though, without the loss to McCall, Lewis would never have developed into the dominant heavyweight, Correa was a man who got to train Lewis on the strength of his association with Leonard, and wasn't up to the job of training a heavyweight champion.
Don't believe everything you hear, J! Stu is totally right about Correa though. Correa was a shithouse who should never have been allowed back into boxing after his misdemeanours involving the removing of padding from one of his fighter's gloves. Someone with a more accurate memory than me will hopefully come on and relate the details. Plus he was just a shit trainer, full stop. Technically inept and full of 'you're the man, knock him out!' bullshit.
However, I have to object to the Williams-Mason comparison. When Len fought Mason, Gary was undefeated and had beaten better names than Williams has done, who has also been beaten three times by Sprott, Sam and Francis. Mason only lost once, to the best fighter of his era.
However, I have to object to the Williams-Mason comparison. When Len fought Mason, Gary was undefeated and had beaten better names than Williams has done, who has also been beaten three times by Sprott, Sam and Francis. Mason only lost once, to the best fighter of his era.
Last edited by dondada on 23 Mar 2004, 12:25, edited 1 time in total.
Very well, but Lewis would have never got caught at all against a Ellis or a Hersia.jamesmcdonnell wrote:As I said, his atheltic gifts and power allowed him to gloss over flaws which occured when he slowed dramatically in his early 30's.
Lewis was a good deal more slight than Audley when he started out, he weighed around 235
Audley looks solid and tight at 245, and I cannot see him getting below 240 at all, he's a bigger guy than Lewis in frame size.
Lewis may have looked more dramatic than Audley, but he never had the widest of punch selections. He always tended to rely on his chief weapons which were his jab, right cross and straight right, and uppercut.
Agreed, his hammering of Mason was pretty impressive, Mason had a bloody good chin, and lewis pasted the shite out of him, but Mason was also made for Lewis, slow and lumbering with punches that started and ended in two different time zones.
It was like a gorilla on valium against a chimpanzee on speed, the Gorilla might have the bombs and the physical strength, but the chimp is gonna batter it up in the end.
Lewis really was fast then, but that speed didn't last long, and once he filled out he slowed down a lot.
Agreed though, without the loss to McCall, Lewis would never have developed into the dominant heavyweight, Correa was a man who got to train Lewis on the strength of his association with Leonard, and wasn't up to the job of training a heavyweight champion.
Lewis even as younger fighter (lets not forget, Lewis was a young prospect - Harrison isn't) was leagues better than Audley IMO.
[quote="jamesmcdonnell"]
Agreed, his hammering of Mason was pretty impressive, Mason had a bloody good chin, and lewis pasted the shite out of him, but Mason was also made for Lewis, slow and lumbering with punches that started and ended in two different time zones.
It was like a gorilla on valium against a chimpanzee on speed, the Gorilla might have the bombs and the physical strength, but the chimp is gonna batter it up in the end.
quote]
Lewis did a job on Mason, indeed, but your portrait of Gary is unfair and rather cruel. As you yourself say, Lewis was indeed a very athletic fighter and at this time was quicker than when he was in his pomp as world champ. He made Gary look very slow but at that time would have done the same to most heavyweights. Mason would fornicate over all the present Warren heavyweights, including Danny Williams, who would get sparked.
Agreed, his hammering of Mason was pretty impressive, Mason had a bloody good chin, and lewis pasted the shite out of him, but Mason was also made for Lewis, slow and lumbering with punches that started and ended in two different time zones.
It was like a gorilla on valium against a chimpanzee on speed, the Gorilla might have the bombs and the physical strength, but the chimp is gonna batter it up in the end.
quote]
Lewis did a job on Mason, indeed, but your portrait of Gary is unfair and rather cruel. As you yourself say, Lewis was indeed a very athletic fighter and at this time was quicker than when he was in his pomp as world champ. He made Gary look very slow but at that time would have done the same to most heavyweights. Mason would fornicate over all the present Warren heavyweights, including Danny Williams, who would get sparked.
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jamesmcdonnell
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All I am saying is that I think Audley is more well rounded than Lewis was, not better, because I don't think he is better than a comparable number of fights Lewis was.
Audley seems to be putting together some very very nice work, and I think he is developing his talents very well, whether he ever has the kind of punch or physical strength Lewis did, remains to be seen, my feeling is that he will never hit as hard as Lewis did.
I would agree that though that Mason and Williams on pure ability are on a par, perhaps Williams has more natural ability. Mason had better defence though, and could box enough to avoid getting hit often and then deliver his own bombs, until he met Lewis of course.
Was Correa ever involved with 'Panama' what was his name Panama Brown was it, the guy who gave Aaron Pryor that concoction, and who also I am sure was done for removing padding from someone's gloves? Did they work together? Am I getting confused?
Audley seems to be putting together some very very nice work, and I think he is developing his talents very well, whether he ever has the kind of punch or physical strength Lewis did, remains to be seen, my feeling is that he will never hit as hard as Lewis did.
I would agree that though that Mason and Williams on pure ability are on a par, perhaps Williams has more natural ability. Mason had better defence though, and could box enough to avoid getting hit often and then deliver his own bombs, until he met Lewis of course.
Was Correa ever involved with 'Panama' what was his name Panama Brown was it, the guy who gave Aaron Pryor that concoction, and who also I am sure was done for removing padding from someone's gloves? Did they work together? Am I getting confused?
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jamesmcdonnell
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No offence to Gazza, but he was always slow. It's just that he was crafty enough to overcome his sloth against most heavyweights. I think If Sanil Sam was able to spark Williams, then Mason certainly would have, he was stronger and hit way harder than Sam, who never had Gomez going once, despite landing some flush shots.
Let's face it, there have been very few heavyweights who were as big, strong, hit as hard, and were as quick as Lewis was in his PHYSICAL prime. Lewis was for a brief period like shit off a shovel, although for me he was always slightly ungainly. He was quick, but never particularly agile or flexible, but with power and handspeed like he had (I think Audley has better handspeed though, especially in combination) he didn't need to be.
Let's face it, there have been very few heavyweights who were as big, strong, hit as hard, and were as quick as Lewis was in his PHYSICAL prime. Lewis was for a brief period like shit off a shovel, although for me he was always slightly ungainly. He was quick, but never particularly agile or flexible, but with power and handspeed like he had (I think Audley has better handspeed though, especially in combination) he didn't need to be.
thanks mate but I dont, sorting wheat from the chaffe is my job on the Oil market! not bout boxing but hey, these two were talking a decent amount deal of sense to me anyway!!! .Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Don't believe everything you hear, J! Stu is totally right about Correa though. Correa was a shithouse who should never have been allowed back into boxing after his misdemeanours involving the removing of padding from one of his fighters gloves. Someone with a more accurate memory than me will hopefully come on and relate the details. Plus he was just a shit trainer, full stop. Technically inept and full of shit.
However, I have to object to the Williams-Mason comparison. When Len fought Mason, Gary was undefeated and had beaten better names than Williams has done, who has also been beaten three times by Sprott, Sam and Francis. Mason only lost once, to the best fighter of his era.
Williams may have more natural ability but it's no good when you keep letting yourself down. Mason would have had him.
Ah - Panama reminded me. Ironically his name was Panama Lewis:
"Encyclopedia: Panama Lewis
Carlos "Panama" Lewis is a well-known and highly controversial boxing trainer who achieved his greatest notoriety in the 1980s.
Lewis was a trainer for several highly-rated boxers in the early 1980s, the most noted of which was light-welterweight champion Aaron Pryor. At the same time, he was already gaining a reputation for questionable tactics, one which became worse when he gave Pryor a now-legendary "black bottle" containing an unknown substance during his 1982 clash with Alexis Arguello at a crucial moment of the fight. After drinking from the bottle, a tired Pryor made a remarkable recovery and scored a knockout over Arguello.
On June 16, 1983, Lewis was a key figure in an incident that landed him in prison. Luis Resto, a journeyman boxer trained by Lewis, faced welterweight contender Billy Collins Jr. in a 10-round non-title fight at Madison Square Garden on the undercard of a Roberto Duran title fight.
Realizing that Resto had little chance against the undefeated Collins, Lewis removed most of the padding from Resto's gloves prior to the fight. Given this advantage, Resto battered Collins for 10 rounds and won a lopsided decision. Collins was so badly injured that he never fought again.
The deception was soon discovered, and both Lewis and Resto were later convicted of conspiracy to fix a sporting event and other crimes. Lewis spent a year in prison and was permanently banned from working as a trainer in the United States, while Resto served more than two years in prison.
Despite his disgrace, Lewis is able to continue to work as a trainer overseas, with a stable of fighters that included sometime heavyweight contender Frans Botha. He resurfaced in the news in the United States in 2002, when Mike Tyson brought him in as an advisor for his title fight with Lennox Lewis. However, Panama Lewis was barred from ringside for the actual fight. "
I can't remember exactly what Correa had to do with it...was probably one of Panama Lewis's sidekicks.
Ah - Panama reminded me. Ironically his name was Panama Lewis:
"Encyclopedia: Panama Lewis
Carlos "Panama" Lewis is a well-known and highly controversial boxing trainer who achieved his greatest notoriety in the 1980s.
Lewis was a trainer for several highly-rated boxers in the early 1980s, the most noted of which was light-welterweight champion Aaron Pryor. At the same time, he was already gaining a reputation for questionable tactics, one which became worse when he gave Pryor a now-legendary "black bottle" containing an unknown substance during his 1982 clash with Alexis Arguello at a crucial moment of the fight. After drinking from the bottle, a tired Pryor made a remarkable recovery and scored a knockout over Arguello.
On June 16, 1983, Lewis was a key figure in an incident that landed him in prison. Luis Resto, a journeyman boxer trained by Lewis, faced welterweight contender Billy Collins Jr. in a 10-round non-title fight at Madison Square Garden on the undercard of a Roberto Duran title fight.
Realizing that Resto had little chance against the undefeated Collins, Lewis removed most of the padding from Resto's gloves prior to the fight. Given this advantage, Resto battered Collins for 10 rounds and won a lopsided decision. Collins was so badly injured that he never fought again.
The deception was soon discovered, and both Lewis and Resto were later convicted of conspiracy to fix a sporting event and other crimes. Lewis spent a year in prison and was permanently banned from working as a trainer in the United States, while Resto served more than two years in prison.
Despite his disgrace, Lewis is able to continue to work as a trainer overseas, with a stable of fighters that included sometime heavyweight contender Frans Botha. He resurfaced in the news in the United States in 2002, when Mike Tyson brought him in as an advisor for his title fight with Lennox Lewis. However, Panama Lewis was barred from ringside for the actual fight. "
I can't remember exactly what Correa had to do with it...was probably one of Panama Lewis's sidekicks.
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jamesmcdonnell
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I was thinking of Al 'Panama' Brown the fighter, I am almost certain Correa was a cornerman with him....
And Ian, I'm agreeing with you already, Mason would have whacked Williams, though it might have been a good tear up, had a prime Williams faced him, though it's very hard to assess when his prime was, seeing as as far back as losing to Julius Francis he was capable of turning in sub-par performances.
And yes, don't believe everything you hear, just because i waffle on a lot, does not sadly always mean I know what I am talking about, nobody does, there's always a bit of opinionated garbage waiting to be exposed....
And Ian, I'm agreeing with you already, Mason would have whacked Williams, though it might have been a good tear up, had a prime Williams faced him, though it's very hard to assess when his prime was, seeing as as far back as losing to Julius Francis he was capable of turning in sub-par performances.
And yes, don't believe everything you hear, just because i waffle on a lot, does not sadly always mean I know what I am talking about, nobody does, there's always a bit of opinionated garbage waiting to be exposed....