Gene Tunney - Why not more consideration among GOAT p4p?!

[Big Bad John]

He never fought black fighters, and a lot of people thought Harry Greb got the better of him.

[HomicideHenry]

There was more than one fight between Greb, where Tunney seemed to be on the bad end of the stick but still got the decisions, for one. Another, yes yes yes was the infamous 'color line' excuse...but for me, though you can make a solid argument for Tunney being an ATG 175 pounder, he could have been the greatest at that weight; he could have fought Battling Siki, or Paul Berlenbach, or McTigue and others, and he could have beaten them all...but no, he had a fight with Johnny Risko and maybe one or two other unknown heavies and then beat an old washed up Jack Dempsey, almost lost to Dempsey in the rematch [the long count] and then had one more defense against a man nobody gave two shits about and retired.

Personally I dont see how a handful of fights at Heavyweight makes you locked for a top 10 spot in the ATG Heavyweight ranks, but guys like Bert Sugar and others do...it would be like ranking Michael Spinks or Roy Jones as an ATG Heavyweight, when really what they did wasnt the amazingly spectacular feat that they tried to make it out to be.

[Robinson]

I think alot of people rate his two wins over Dempsey
very highly, and between cigars Bert Sugar reckons that
this is qualifier enough at being an ATG at HW.

[HomicideHenry]

Dempsey drew the color line, yes, while as champion, though the fight with Harry Wills almost came into fruition, but was dropped because of two reasons: people were concerned with having another Jack Johnson, and Tunney meant more money than Wills.

Dempsey, though, did fight some black men while on the way up, early on in his career. And if reports are true, while as champion, he had an exhibition of sorts up in Canada against the middle aged Jack Johnson and though knocked down early on, he managed to stop The Galveston Giant in the 7th round. Dempsey's bastard child (excuse my french) swears up and down that the fight actually took place, because a whole bunch of gamblers wanted to "prove" who was the greatest heavyweight of all time.

[Big Bad John]

Jack Dempsey signed to fight Wills.
Tunney never signed to fight a black man.
Tunney used racist language.
Tunney won TWO fights out of the five he had with Greb, and one of those decisions was very questionable.

[Ambling Alp]

There was more than one fight between Greb, where Tunney seemed to be on the bad end of the stick but still got the decisions, for one. Another, yes yes yes was the infamous 'color line' excuse...but for me, though you can make a solid argument for Tunney being an ATG 175 pounder, he could have been the greatest at that weight; he could have fought Battling Siki, or Paul Berlenbach, or McTigue and others, and he could have beaten them all...but no, he had a fight with Johnny Risko and maybe one or two other unknown heavies and then beat an old washed up Jack Dempsey, almost lost to Dempsey in the rematch [the long count] and then had one more defense against a man nobody gave two shits about and retired.

Personally I dont see how a handful of fights at Heavyweight makes you locked for a top 10 spot in the ATG Heavyweight ranks, but guys like Bert Sugar and others do...it would be like ranking Michael Spinks or Roy Jones as an ATG Heavyweight, when really what they did wasnt the amazingly spectacular feat that they tried to make it out to be.

Almost total nonsense.
-Tunney won 2 decisions against Greb that almost everyone thought he deserved. He lost one (his only loss in a long career). The other two were no-decisions. In one he is given a newspaper decision and the other is considered a draw. Saying that he was on the "bad end of the stick but still got the decisions" is simply not true.

-Color line? Tunney didn't use that as some sort of excuse for not fighting blacks. Most of the good fighters in his weight class at the time were white. Kid Norkfolk was the only serious lightheavyweight contender that was black. Wills was the only black contender before Tunney won the heavyweight title.
After Tunney won the title, Wills was no longer a serious contender. He agreed to defend the title against the winner of Sharkey-Dempsey. Dempsey won and so Tunney fought and beat him again.
Dempsey was old? He was only 31 the first time they fought, and 32 the second time. Tunney himself was only two years younger.
Of course Demspey was rusty for the first fight, but it's doubtful many other fighters would have beaten Demdpey so badly.
Demspey had the tuneup fight against Sharkey just three months before the second fight. Of course Dempsey wasn't as good as he used to be but it's doubtful that still is a very good win for Tunney.

-Tunney then defended the title against Tom Heeney, who was the top contender at the time. After that, there was no other contenders that stood out. Tunney had no real reason to continue fighting so he retired.

-Ducking Siki or McTigue? Ridiculaus. Tunney couldn't get a title fight with either one of them. He would have beaten either one of them easily. Nor could he get one against Carpentier or Levinsky. Tunney was a pro 11 years while other lesser fighters got title shots before he got a title shot. He did beat Carpentier and Levinsky in non-title fights.

-His career at heavyweight was much more extensive than either Spinks or Jones. He had atleast 20 fights against heavyweights and never lost. He has to be one of the Top 15 heavyweights of All-Time.

-He is one of the Top 5 lightheavyweights of All-Time. (Though he never not got a title shot at this weight.
-It's mindboggling that a guy who had to wait 11 years for a title shot, beat 5 Hall of Famers, gave the guy he beat for the title a rematch, beat the top contender, gets accused of this crap. Unbelievable.

He is one of the Top 20 fighters of All-Time.

[raylawpc]

Jack Dempsey signed to fight Wills.
Tunney never signed to fight a black man.
Tunney used racist language.
Tunney won TWO fights out of the five he had with Greb, and one of those decisions was very questionable.

What racist language? That's the first I've heard of that. Can you give us a quote?

In point of fact, in 1925-1926, Tunney suggested an elimination about between him and Wills, with the winner to fight Dempsey. But Wills manager refused, believing he could force Dempsey to fight Wills without the necessity of going through Tunney. This is all recounted in John Lardner, White Hopes and Other Tigers, p. 168. (Of course, we all know Wills strategy failed.)

What other African-American fighter would you have had Tunney fight? Kid Norfolk? Was there a call for that match at the time? And how would that match have helped Tunney's career?

[dempseyfire]

There was more than one fight between Greb, where Tunney seemed to be on the bad end of the stick but still got the decisions, for one. Another, yes yes yes was the infamous 'color line' excuse...but for me, though you can make a solid argument for Tunney being an ATG 175 pounder, he could have been the greatest at that weight; he could have fought Battling Siki, or Paul Berlenbach, or McTigue and others, and he could have beaten them all...but no, he had a fight with Johnny Risko and maybe one or two other unknown heavies and then beat an old washed up Jack Dempsey, almost lost to Dempsey in the rematch [the long count] and then had one more defense against a man nobody gave two shits about and retired.

Personally I dont see how a handful of fights at Heavyweight makes you locked for a top 10 spot in the ATG Heavyweight ranks, but guys like Bert Sugar and others do...it would be like ranking Michael Spinks or Roy Jones as an ATG Heavyweight, when really what they did wasnt the amazingly spectacular feat that they tried to make it out to be.

Almost total nonsense.
-Tunney won 2 decisions against Greb that almost everyone thought he deserved. He lost one (his only loss in a long career). The other two were no-decisions. In one he is given a newspaper decision and the other is considered a draw. Saying that he was on the "bad end of the stick but still got the decisions" is simply not true.

-Color line? Tunney didn't use that as some sort of excuse for not fighting blacks. Most of the good fighters in his weight class at the time were white. Kid Norkfolk was the only serious lightheavyweight contender that was black. Wills was the only black contender before Tunney won the heavyweight title.
After Tunney won the title, Wills was no longer a serious contender. He agreed to defend the title against the winner of Sharkey-Dempsey. Dempsey won and so Tunney fought and beat him again.
Dempsey was old? He was only 31 the first time they fought, and 32 the second time. Tunney himself was only two years younger.
Of course Demspey was rusty for the first fight, but it's doubtful many other fighters would have beaten Demdpey so badly.
Demspey had the tuneup fight against Sharkey just three months before the second fight. Of course Dempsey wasn't as good as he used to be but it's doubtful that still is a very good win for Tunney.

-Tunney then defended the title against Tom Heeney, who was the top contender at the time. After that, there was no other contenders that stood out. Tunney had no real reason to continue fighting so he retired.

-Ducking Siki or McTigue? Ridiculaus. Tunney couldn't get a title fight with either one of them. He would have beaten either one of them easily. Nor could he get one against Carpentier or Levinsky. Tunney was a pro 11 years while other lesser fighters got title shots before he got a title shot. He did beat Carpentier and Levinsky in non-title fights.

-His career at heavyweight was much more extensive than either Spinks or Jones. He had atleast 20 fights against heavyweights and never lost. He has to be one of the Top 15 heavyweights of All-Time.

-He is one of the Top 5 lightheavyweights of All-Time. (Though he never not got a title shot at this weight.
-It's mindboggling that a guy who had to wait 11 years for a title shot, beat 5 Hall of Famers, gave the guy he beat for the title a rematch, beat the top contender, gets accused of this crap. Unbelievable.

He is one of the Top 20 fighters of All-Time.

Great post Alp!

[Big Bad John]

Almost total nonsense.
-Tunney won 2 decisions against Greb that almost everyone thought he deserved. He lost one (his only loss in a long career). The other two were no-decisions. In one he is given a newspaper decision and the other is considered a draw. Saying that he was on the "bad end of the stick but still got the decisions" is simply not true.

I'm sorry, but I have to call you on this post. Reading the blurbs Boxrec has under those fights doesn't qualify as research. Tunney-Greb II was very controversial. While the judges' decision was appropriate under the circumstances, the referee took a number of rounds away from Greb, making it impossible for Greb to get a decision.

[Ambling Alp]

I have read a lot about Tunney and about the Tunney-Greb fights. The 2nd and 4th fights were close, but many people think Tunney deserved the decision in the 2nd fight, even without losing rounds because of penalties. The referee should penalize Greb if he uses illegal tactics. He was lucky he didn't get penalized more in other fights.

[raylawpc]

Here's a description of the fight from the NYTimes 2/24/1923, page 8:

[Robinson]

Have either of you seen Tunney-Greb;s fights ?

[raylawpc]

And the Chicago Tribune:

[raylawpc]

Have either of you seen Tunney-Greb;s fights ?

Kym, unless Alp or John were born before 1908, its not likely. No copies of the film (if any) still exist.

[Robinson]

Indeed

[My2Sense]

To set the record straight on the Tunney-Greb fights:

1) Greb won decisively in the first fight. However, stories that Tunney was totally outclassed or took a severe beating appear to be somewhat exagerrated. Contemporary accounts portray Tunney as giving a decent account of himself, though his face was cut up badly. Also, Greb had been a sizeable betting favorite going into this fight.

2) Tunney won a decision in the 2nd fight, that was considered close and questionable by some. Opinions vary widely on this fight. Many people believed Tunney edged it fair and square, some thought it could've gone either way, and a few thought Greb was robbed. This result was voted "Upset of the Year" by Ring magazine.

3) In the 3rd fight, Tunney wins another close decision, but one that is generally not disputed, except perhaps by a small minority.

4) In another fight (their 5th, I believe), a no-decision, the fight is considered to have been evenly fought and probably could've gone either way if a decision was renderable.

5) In their final fight, another no-decision, Tunney outfights Greb by a wide margin and is considered to have given Greb the most decisivle licking of his career. Greb publicly admits that he simply cannot hang with Tunney anymore, and will not fight him again.

[My2Sense]

As far as Harry Wills goes...

Tunney did not seriously consider pursuing a match with Dempsey until 1925, when he knocked out Tommy Gibbons, who had very famously extended Jack the distance.

At that time, Dempsey and Wills were actively trying to negotiate a match, with various politics and interests getting in the way.

Only a year later, the Dempsey-Wills fight fell through altogether, and both fighters went their separate ways. Dempsey picked Tunney as his next opponent, and surprisingly lost. Just a month later, Wills was upset by Jack Sharkey, who exposed him and practically chased him out of the ring. Wills was never considered a top contender again. Dempsey then agreed to fight the winner of the Sharkey-Wills fight, and Tunney agreed to fight the winner of the Dempsey-Sharkey fight.

[My2Sense]

As far as why Tunney may be underrated, I think it may simply be because some of his biggest wins (Dempsey, Gibbons, Carpentier) are often dismissed as being against aging/faded opponents.

However, I believe (as many others do) that he is a top 10, if not top 5 light-heavyweight all time.

[Big Bad John]

Have either of you seen Tunney-Greb;s fights ?

How old do you think I am?

[Robinson]

Old enough to know better :P

[Big Bad John]

Asking people if they've seen Harry Greb fight'll work on a lot of boxing fora. Some dumbass'll want to look like an expert. Here, people'll line up to point out that there are no copies of any of his fights.

[Ambling Alp]

Have either of you seen Tunney-Greb;s fights ?

I saw itr on Pay Per View.
Most fights we haven't actually seen. That's the case with even with more modern fighters.
So do ignore every decision that a fighter won that you didn't see?
Willie Pep for example won over 160 decisions. How many people have seen much more than a handful of these fights? We take it on blind faith that the judges were right because we don't have much choice.

Of course judges make horrible decisions, but the majority of the time the verdict is right.
I am very reluctant to believe that a decison was incorrect in a particular fight that I haven't seen, especially from a newspaper account.

How do you know this newspaper reporter knows what he is talking about? How do you know if he has a bias in favor of one fighter, or against the other, or both? Or that he just doesn't like one style better than another?

Think about it. Lets say there was a fight yesterday that you missed. If you read a newspaper article (especially by an author that you don't know) about that fight would you automatically assume that the article was right on the money? Probably not.
Then why put so much stock in an article written more than 80 years ago?

If you are reading a book, atleast you can often get an idea of the author's expertise and biases. Therefore you have a much better idea if his account of a fight is going to be accurrate.

Of course there is no substitute for seeing the fight for yourself.

[Big Bad John]

In general, for a fighter like Willie Pep or Rocky Marciano, most seasoned observers will know the stories behind any fights that might be controversial.

[raylawpc]

Asking people if they've seen Harry Greb fight'll work on a lot of boxing fora. Some dumbass'll want to look like an expert. Here, people'll line up to point out that there are no copies of any of his fights.

However, we do have some clips of Greb shadow boxing and sparring with an old - yet surprising spry - Philadelphia Jack O'Brien.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3Q&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFItTXTExms

One can at least get a feel for how Greb must have looked in action.

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

I always admired Gene Tunney as one of the greatest fighters of all time. The excellent journalist Lew Eskin, head of Boxing Illustrated, considered Tunney the greatest heavyweight (until the end of the '60)