A look at Larry Holmes title challenges

[Robinson]

> I posted this on another site last year, thought I may as well put it up here.<

Look at Larry Holmes opponents
The men Larry Holmes faced in his reign as world heavyweight champion, the men who defined his legacy.

Larry Holmes wins the title against Ken Norton in 1978.

Alfredo Evangelista. KO Round 7. Oct. 1978.
After going 15 rounds with Muhammad Ali for the world heavyweight title in 1977, Alfredo would go on to KO Jean Piere Coopman in the first round, as well as to string together ten straight wins with 8 stoppages amongst them. After the Holmes fight, he would go on to face Leon Spinks and Greg Page and lose to both of them, but he would also beat Renaldo Snipes and tough journeyman Terry Daniels.
1978 record 24-2

Ossie Ocasio. TKO Round 7. March 1979.
Prior to his Holmes fight, Ocasio had just won two decisions over the skilled boxer Jimmy Young who had recent wins over Ron Lyle and George Foreman. It was these two fights over Young which saw Ocasio face off against Holmes. After the Holmes bout Ocasio fought Michael Dokes to a draw, and in his older years would win decisions over Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Pierre Coetzer.
1979 record 13-0

Mike Weaver. TKO Round 12. June 1979.
The hard hitting Weaver had suffered a fistful of losses early in his career including a seventh round stoppage to Duane Bobbick, the man who had beaten Holmes for the Olympic trials in 1972. Leading up to the Holmes fight Weaver beat and lost to a few suspect opponents his best win was a points win over Pedro Lowel and a fifth round stoppage of Bernardo Mercado. After the Holmes fight Weaver would go on to win the WBA title by beating John Tate, and in defending this title he would defeat Gerrie Coezter in the 13th and win a decision over James Tillis. He would lose his title to Michael Dokes, only to re-match for it with a draw. After some more losses to better fighters, and a string of wins over journeymen, he would go on to KO Carl Williams inside two, and to beat Bert Cooper in 1993. Weaver would go onto face Holmes again when both men are well into there forties.
1979 record 19-8

Earnie Shavers. TKO Round 11. September 1979.
Holmes had already defeated the hard hitting Shavers on his way to the title, and granted the power puncher a title shot after Shavers had stopped Ken Norton inside round one. Prior to this Shavers had faced a who’s who list of top 1970s heavyweights, before his first Holmes loss, he had just gone 15 rounds with Muhammad Ali for the title. An always dangerous fighter, Shavers would go onto stop Joe Bugner in 1982 as well as lose some more fights and go onto demonstrate his power against lesser opponents.
1979 record 59-7-1

Lorenzo Zannon. KO Round 6. February 1980.
Leading up to the Holmes fight Zannon had suffered two losses to the likes of Jerry Quarry, who he out boxed until being KO’d and a loss to Ken Norton, giving Norton a tough fight until he was stopped. His best wins in this period was against Evangelista who he bested twice and against Italian fighter Peralta and journeyman Sandman. Zannon brought a European title to the Holmes fight. After the Holmes bout Zannon fought four more times with mixed results and would go on to retire soon after.
1980 record 25-4-2

Leroy Jones. TKO Round 8. March 1980.
A physically big man who at 6’5 and 255 lb posed a threat to most opponents Bringing to his professional career a good amateur background. Prior to his title challenge against Holmes, Jones had a near perfect record with just one draw against Pedro Lovell, his best wins were against Mike Weaver, John Dino Dennis and journeyman Jody Ballard. After his Holmes loss, he had one more fight and then retired.
1980 record 24-0-1

Scott Ledoux. TKO Round 7. July 1980.
He gave Foreman a tough fight, in there brief but exciting bout, he managed to take Leon Spinks and Ken Norton to a draw. He faced top competition and was a competent contender, who would go on to fight for another three years with a 7-4 record over a mixed grade of opponents.
1980 record 26-8-4

Muhammad Ali. TKO Round 10. October 1980.
There is no dispute that the Ali that fought Holmes should have retired in 1978 with his win over Leon Spinks, but for whatever reason the former champ felt a need to return and the public who felt he was the true champion granted him another chance. Holmes though reluctantly stopped the legend in a one sided bout, that saw Ali not land a single punch it was to be Ali’s only stoppage defeat. After the Holmes fight Ali would have one more fight and lose that as well.
1980 record 56-3

Trevor Berbick. UD 15. April 1981.
Berbick’s best performance immediately prior to his Holmes fight was a ninth round KO over John Tate, before that he had faced average opposition and suffered a loss to Bernardo Mercado. After his Holmes loss the big Jamaican would beat an elderly Ali, decision Greg Page, Mitch Green and Pinklon Thomas, as an older past his prime fighter he faced varying opponents with mixed results. Besides his win over Ali he is also best remembered for his stoppage loss against a prime Mike Tyson who stripped him of his WBC belt.
1981 record 18-1-1







Leon Spinks. TKO Round 3. June 1981.
The Olympic gold medalist had been catapulted into sports stardom due to his win over Ali in 1978, just seven fights into his pro career. Before his second shot at the title against Holmes, he was stopped by the tough South African Coetzee, thereafter he would stop Evagelista, Isaac and Mercardo, it was his namesake however that made him a credible contender. After his Holmes loss he fought at both Heavy and Cruiser weights with mixed results losing a good many of bouts to a mixed bag of fighters. His style was aggressive and awkward, but it was his heart and work ethic that saw him fail.
1981 record 10-2-2

Renaldo Snipes. TKO Round 11. November 1981.
The tricky Snipes leading up to his fight with Holmes had strung together a perfect record, with recent wins that included wins over Floyd Cummings, Eddie Mustaffa Muhammad and Gerrie Coetzee, these wins put him inline for a title shot. After giving Holmes a tough fight Snipes went on to suffer a cluster of losses to top fighters as well as journeymen, his best wins post Holmes were against Trevor Berbick and Johnny DuPlooy.
1981 record 22-0

Gerry Cooney. TKO Round 13. June 1982.
The great white hope, or hype whichever you view him as, Cooney in 1982 was a very real contender, who was well marketed and was able to land both men a grand pay day. Leading up to his showdown with Holmes, Cooney early on had cut his teeth with a stoppage over John Dino Dennis, and then in 1980 he stopped a still very effective Jimmy Young inside four, it was his first round stoppages of Norton and Lyle that landed the hard hitting Cooney a title shot. After his Holmes loss, Cooney strung a handful of stoppage wins only to himself be stopped by Michael Spinks, and in 1990 after a three year lay off he was stopped by the also returning George Foreman. Cooney had devastating power and before Holmes he had stopped all but four of his opponents. Many claim that Cooney peaked for the Holmes fight and proved that he would never regain the fire that had made him such a dangerous contender.
1982 record 25-0

Randall ‘Tex’ Cobb. UD 15. November 1982.
The match between these two caused great controversy as Holmes was able to completely dominate and won every round. Cobb was fresh of an eighth round stoppage of an always dangerous Earnie Shavers, and proved he could take punishment as well as dish it out. He then went on to lose two close split decisions to Ken Norton and Michael Dokes, in this fights he proved how tenacious a fighter he can be. After the Dokes loss he went on to string four straight wins together which included a decision victory over the tough contender Bernado Mercado. Cobb went on after the Holmes loss to beat Leon Spinks and lose a majortity decision to an up and coming Buster Douglas.
1982 record 21-2

Lucien Rodrigues. UD 12. March 1983.
The Frenchman brought with him the European Union title, as well as an international flavour to the world title, leading up to his Holmes title challenge Lucien had lost a decision to Dokes, after which he strung together eleven wins over European opponents including Evangelista. After the Holmes fight Lucien would fight in Europe with mixed outcomes, losing as many as he won.
1983 record 35-7-1

Tim Witherspoon. SD 12. March 1983.
Before his title challenge Witherspoon had defeated all of his opponents, most he had stopped with his powerful over hand right. It was his close decision over Renaldo Snipes which saw him gain a title shot, able to give Holmes a close fight Witherspoon would go on to defeat James Tillis, Greg Page, James Broad, James Smith, Frank Bruno, Tony Tubbs, Carl Williams, Jose Ribalta, and Jorge Luis Gonalez. He would win the WBC and WBA title on separate occasions and would fight on well into his silver years, still able to deliver a damaging blow with his over right.
1983 record 15-0

Scott Frank. TKO Round 5. September 1983.
The local tough guy, who brought a title fight to his home town, before his title challenge Frank’s best fights was a draw over Renaldo Snipes, a points win over journeyman legend Chuck Wepner, and a stoppage over tough guy Ron Stander. Other than that he had beaten all of his other opponents, this did him no good against Holmes who stopped him in five. After his Holmes loss, Frank retired and made two come backs one in 1987 and the other ten years later in 1997, he won both fights by stoppage.
1983 record 21-0-1

Marvis Frazier. TKO Round 1. November 1983.
The son of Smokin’ Joe Frazier was a talented amateur who under his father’s guidance became a solid pro. Leading up to his Holmes fight Marvis had an unblemished record with wins over Steve Zouski, James Broad and Joe Bugner, none of this did him any good against the prime Holmes who stopped him inside the first round. After his Holmes defeat Frazier put together a solid winning streak which included wins over James Tillis, Joes Ribalta and James Smith. This put him in sight of a Mike Tyson show down, where he was stopped inside of one round. After the Tyson loss, he had three more straight wins before retiring.
1983 record 10-0

James Smith. TKO Round 12. November 1984.
Bonecrusher Smith was on his way up when he challenged Holmes for the title, apart from a loss to James Broad in his first fight, Smith had strapped together 14 straight wins, which included a win over tough Briton Frank Bruno, it was this win that gave him credibility to face Holmes. After his loss to Holmes, Smith suffered three losses before he stuck together wins over Weaver, Bey and Witherspoon who he took the WBA strap from. This lead him into a show down with Tyson, who he managed to go the distance with in a one sided loss. Smith would go on to fight a variety of opponents and with a variety of results. Smith faced Holmes again in 1999, both men well beyond there best, it only took Holmes eight rounds in the rematch.
1984 record 14-1






David Bey. TKO Round 10. March 1985.
When he fought Holmes Bey was un-defeated and had won fights against Buster Douglas, who was five in his pro career while Bey was making his debut. His best win was against Greg Page which led him to a Holmes fight. After which he lost more than he won, settling in as a journeyman instead of a contender. Before turning Pro, Bey had an impressive amateur record which brought to the ring considerable experience on his part, considering his limited pro-record.
1985 record 14-0

Carl Williams. UD 15. May 1985.
When the Truth faced Holmes he was an un-beaten prospect with a lot of potential who had just come of wins over a list of sound journeymen, but it was his win over James Tillis that landed him the Holmes fight. After losing the decision to Holmes, he beat a handful of opponents including Bert Cooper and Trevor Berbick before facing Tyson for his title, where he was stopped inside of the first. After the Tyson loss he had an un-exceptional span of wins and losses.
1985 record 16-0.

The top fighters of his reign that he never got to fight, include Greg Page, Gerrie Coetzer, Jimmy Young, James Tillis, Frank Bruno, Tony Tucker and Tony Tubbs.

Holmes would go on to lose his title to the then undisputed Light Heavyweight Champion, Michael Spinks in a controversial, if not very close decision. The re-match left as much doubt to judging clarity. After which Holmes retired only to return three years later to face a prime Mike Tyson. After the Tyson loss he returned in 1991 with a comeback that lasted up until 2002. In his comeback 1991-2002 he went 21-3. Before his decision defeat to Michael Spinks in 1985, his record was an impeccable 48-0. Holmes faced every one that he could, often fighting fresh talent as they were on the way up or just as they were reaching a prime. He was an older man facing younger and hungry fighters.

In regards to Holmes.

There was an attempt to unify the WBA and WBC strap but politics prevented this fight between Holmes and Coetzee.

The challengers that Holmes was going to face that were top guys at the time Greg Page, James Tillis, Jimmy Young, John Tate, Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs, Frank Bruno and Gerrie Coetzer all were elimanted by one of the guys that did go on to face Holmes.

Young loss twice to Ocasio. Ocasio faces Holmes.

Berbick had beaten tate, which eliminated Tate, which gave Berbick the shot.

Snipes beat Gerrie Coetzee, which you could argue elminated Gerrie and put Snipes in line for Holmes.

I guess Cooney helped eliminate Young again.

Bonecrusher Smiths win over Bruno eliminated the Briton from facing Holmes and elevated Smiths status as challenger.

David Bey got his shot by beating Greg Page, which in turn eliminated Page from facing Holmes.
Though Page was credible before this loss and after.

Carl Truth Williams beat James Tillis which got him his fight against Holmes, this in turn eliminated Tillis from facing Holmes.

Granted He did face some not so great guys, but when you fight that many challengers that often, as is the case of Louis, Burns and so on you do face some guys who are not all time greats.

Holmes should have in my opinions given rematches to Witherspoon
and Williams to eliminate criticism and the doubts that those fights
did raise by his detractors.

Kym Robinson, 2007

[Big Bad John]

Not bad. Just as a note, here are the top 3 heavyweights ranked by Ring magazine at the end of the following years, with the fighters Holmes didn't face in red:

1979
John Tate
Gerrie Coetzee
Mike Weaver

1980
Mike Weaver
Gerry Cooney
Leon Spinks

1981
Mike Weaver
Gerry Cooney
Michael Dokes

1982
Michael Dokes
Mike Weaver
Gerrie Coetzee

1983
Gerrie Coetzee
Greg Page
Michael Dokes

1984
Pinklon Thomas
Greg Page
David Bey

I think that if I can manage to get drunk again, there might be a thread in this. The top 3 fighters in Ali's reign? Marciano's? You can look them up here:

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/T ... al_Ratings

[Robinson]

Thanks for that.

Appreciated :)

[Big Bad John]

Let's compare that to Muhammad Ali's championship years. In the years he wasn't champion, I'll exclude Ali and the champion (Frazier or Foreman):

1963
Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson
Ernie Terrell

1964
Ernie Terrell
Floyd Patterson
George Chuvalo

1966
Ernie Terrell
Zora Folley
Thad Spencer

1967
Joe Frazier
Thad Spencer
Jimmy Ellis

1968
Joe Frazier
Jimmy Ellis
Oscar Bonavena

1969:
Joe Frazier
Jimmy Ellis
Jerry Quarry

1970
George Foreman
Oscar Bonavena
Jerry Quarry

1971
Jerry Quarry
George Foreman
Oscar Bonavena

1972
George Foreman
Jimmy Ellis
Ron Lyle

1973
Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Jerry Quarry

1974
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Ron Lyle

1975
Ken Norton
Jimmy Young
Joe Frazier

1976
George Foreman
Ken Norton
Jimmy Young

1977
Ken Norton
Jimmy Young
Larry Holmes

1978
Larry Holmes
Ken Norton
Leon Spinks

Basically, if you take the three best fighters from every year Ali was on top, Ali beat all of them. That is why he's the greatest fighter of all time. Thad Spencer was ranked #1 by Ring magazine for a few months (following his wins over Doug Jones and Ernie Terrell), but he stopped training, and went 0-8-1 (5 KO losses) in his next nine bouts before retiring. On top of that, Ali was banned from boxing during the time!

[Robinson]

When Ali left the sport it was the beginning of the ABC gangs,
I mean lets be fair, its easy for us to assume that unifying the
belts is easy for a champion.

The reality is more 'belts' a fighter has, the more sanctioning
fee's he has to pay.

When Ali was champion he had ONE belt, ONE title to worry
about. No politics of the era.

So it was easy to gel with the Rings ratings and facing its
contenders, the governing bodies, the one that own the
belts see things differently.

And like Holme's said he could make more money fighting
a Frazier and Frank than he could in facing a Page.

For me as a fan, I would love to have seen Holmes face those
red named men. He however did not.

That does not mean that he was a lame champion.

Nor does it mean that the men he faced were bums.

[Robinson]

Put up Dempsey, Louis and Burns rankings if you can as a point
of comparison. I suppose the Rings only goes so far back.

Can you put up other HW champs ?

Thanks again

[Realrobroy]

The originating post was a compelling montage , but at the level here .... the greater picture is a tougher standard yet .

[Big Bad John]

When Ali left the sport it was the beginning of the ABC gangs,
I mean lets be fair, its easy for us to assume that unifying the
belts is easy for a champion.

The reality is more 'belts' a fighter has, the more sanctioning
fee's he has to pay.

When Ali was champion he had ONE belt, ONE title to worry
about. No politics of the era.

Really? Then what about:

• WBA Champion Ernie Terrell (1964)
• WBA Champion Jimmy Ellis (1968)
• WBC Champion Ken Norton (1978)

[Robinson]

Imagine adding the WBC and IBF into the fold too...

[Big Bad John]

Put up Dempsey, Louis and Burns rankings if you can as a point
of comparison. I suppose the Rings only goes so far back.

Ring magazine rankings begin in 1924. Here's Joe Louis:

1937
Max Schmeling
Tommy Farr
Nathan Mann

1938
Lou Nova
Max Baer
Bob Pastor

1939
Tony Galento
Bob Pastor
Lou Nova

1940
Max Baer
Arturo Godoy
Red Burman

1941
Billy Conn
Lem Franklin
Bob Pastor

1942 Louis was in the Army
Jimmy Bivins
Tami Mauriello
Turkey Thompson

1943 Louis was in the Army
Jimmy Bivins
Tami Mauriello
Lee Q Murray
1944 Louis was in the Army
Melio Bettina
Tami Mauriello
Curtis Sheppard

1945 Louis was in the Army
Billy Conn
Tami Mauriello
Jimmy Bivins

1946 Louis was in the Army
Tami Mauriello
Elmer Ray
Jersey Joe Walcott

1947
Jersey Joe Walcott
Elmer Ray
Lee Q Murray

1948
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Lee Savold

[Big Bad John]

Imagine adding the WBC and IBF into the fold too...

The WBA stripped Ali in 1964, but the WBC continued to recognize him as champion.

[Big Bad John]

Lennox Lewis:
1998
Evander Holyfield
Michael Grant
Michael Moorer (Moorer didn't fight in the calendar year of 1998, so this ranking is highly suspect)
Shannon Briggs

1999
Evander Holyfield
Michael Grant
Ike Ibeabuchi (incarcerated)
David Tua

2000
Mike Tyson
Kirk Johnson (Lewis signed to fight him, but Johnson pulled out due to an injury)
Evander Holyfield

2001
Wladimir Klitschko
Mike Tyson
Chris Byrd

2002
Wladimir Klitschko
Chris Byrd
David Tua

2003
Vitali Klitschko
Chris Byrd
Corrie Sanders

A few of the rankings are incomplete (notably 1997, with 1998 being suspicious as well), but take a look at the 1995 and 1996 rankings:

1995
1. Riddick Bowe
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Bruce Seldon
7. Frank Bruno
8. George Foreman
9. Alexander Zolkin
10. Henry Akinwande

1996
1. Evander Holyfield
2. Lennox Lewis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Michael Moorer
5. Andrew Golota
6. Ray Mercer
7. Henry Akinwande
8. David Tua
9. Riddick Bowe
10. Tim Witherspoon

He beat 6/9 and 7/9 of the other fighters at some point or another in those respective years.

[Realrobroy]

Furthermore ... I feel that the 80's were a very under-rated decade for heavyweights. Dokes , Page , Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams and Tony Tucker ....how gifted and skilled were they? ..(I mean come on these guys or most of them , on paper at te least should have been great or near great( at least on gifts and skils ) in ANY ERA ! ....what potential ! How strange how there was such a disproportionate level of drug abuse .....hmmm any conspiracy theorist want to chime in ? Should be reasonably clear what I am suggesting .

[Big Bad John]

All-in-all, I would strongly argue that Lewis and Louis had better defense records than Larry Holmes.

[Big Bad John]

Furthermore ... I feel that the 80's were a very under-rated decade for heavyweights. Dokes , Page , Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams and Tony Tucker ....how gifted and skilled were they? ..(I mean come on these guys or some of them should have been great or near great( at least on gifts and skils ) in ANY ERA ! ....what potential strange how there was such a disproportionate level of drug abuse .....hmmm any conspiracy theorist want to chime in ? Should be reasonably clear what I am suggesting .

When I was in high school in the late 1980s, meth was everywhere. People were taking it like coffee. Any time your mom was nagging you about cleaning your room, you made a call and got $5 or $10 worth of speed, and then played the drums for two hours.

[Realrobroy]

Cha -ching
OK one more step .

[Realrobroy]

C'mon y'all ....

[TheOneIsHere2008]

To me Ali, Holmes, and Louis could have beat all the opponents the others faced with a couple of exceptions...I think Frazier and Foreman present interesting challenges...I'm not saying Foreman Frazier beats them but I am saying they presents a major challenge...

The interesting question to me is how they do against each other...They are so very close but I think Ali has more tools to work with given the styles he employed in the ring....He beat three great champs with three different styles...He beat Liston with speed...He beat Foreman with guile...And he beat Frazier with strength...

[SteveO]

[quoteBasically, if you take the three best fighters from every year Ali was on top, Ali beat all of them. That is why he's the greatest fighter of all time. Thad Spencer was ranked #1 by Ring magazine for a few months (following his wins over Doug Jones and Ernie Terrell), but he stopped training, and went 0-8-1 (5 KO losses) in his next nine bouts before retiring. On top of that, Ali was banned from boxing during the time![/quote]

I believe an Ali-Thad Spencer contest was in the works for later in 1967 but of course it never happened because Ali lost his license.

[dempseyfire]

All-in-all, I would strongly argue that Lewis and Louis had better defense records than Larry Holmes.

I'd rank Shavers, Berbick, Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Weaver overall superior to Bruno, McCall, Tua, old Holyfield, Grant, and Klitschko (and that's excluding Holmes' best win over Norton FOR the title . . .Lewis was given the WBC belt and then unified with Holyfield).

[Big Bad John]

Yeah, that win over Norton was really great. Except for the fact that nine months later, Shavers obliterated him in a round.

[dempseyfire]

Yeah, that win over Norton was really great. Except for the fact that nine months later, Shavers obliterated him in a round.

As embarassing as Holyfield getting beat up by John Ruiz months after he fought Lewis close, even winning on many ringside scorecards?

[Big Bad John]

The Ruiz fights were close, and Holyfield went on to beat Hasim Rahman. I don't see how the comparison is valid. It wasn't until three years later, against Chris Byrd, that Holyfield lost conclusively. Norton was counting the lights not long after losing - very closely - to Holmes.

And by "many," I assume you mean "1/50 of."

[Realrobroy]

Furthermore ... I feel that the 80's were a very under-rated decade for heavyweights. Dokes , Page , Pinklon Thomas, Carl Williams and Tony Tucker ....how gifted and skilled were they? ..(I mean come on these guys or some of them should have been great or near great( at least on gifts and skils ) in ANY ERA ! ....what potential strange how there was such a disproportionate level of drug abuse .....hmmm any conspiracy theorist want to chime in ? Should be reasonably clear what I am suggesting .

When I was in high school in the late 1980s, meth was everywhere. People were taking it like coffee. Any time your mom was nagging you about cleaning your room, you made a call and got $5 or $10 worth of speed, and then played the drums for two hours.

Thats most of it . But wonder if Don King might have been setting these guys up to bet against them . Just seems very odd to me that so , so many high level atheletes got mixed up with coke in such disproportionate levels.

[Big Bad John]

That's silly. Everyone was doing coke and meth back then. It's not like Tyson himself wasn't using.