Mike Tyson In His Prime

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I shall not mention Ali post exile as that seems to upset
alot of Ali's ardent fans

No, but if you mention any fight after Manilla you might as well judge Willie Mays by what he accomplished as a New York Met, Johnny Unitas by what he accomplished as a San Diego Charger, and Michael Jordan by what he accomplished as a Washington Wizard.

[Robinson]

I shall not mention Ali post exile as that seems to upset
alot of Ali's ardent fans

No, but if you mention any fight after Manilla you might as well judge Willie Mays by what he accomplished as a New York Met, Johnny Unitas by what he accomplished as a San Diego Charger, and Michael Jordan by what he accomplished as a Washington Wizard.

I dont know any thing about those other sports...

BUT Ali was still effective as a fighter and was the worlds HW
champion after 1975.

[Klee Gluckman]

Tyson had a bad night v Douglas because he was inactive coming in. The Tyson that fought Ruddock would have dealt to Douglas. And to say that the Tyson that fought Holyfield and a prime Tyson are the same beast is silly.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I shall not mention Ali post exile as that seems to upset
alot of Ali's ardent fans

No, but if you mention any fight after Manilla you might as well judge Willie Mays by what he accomplished as a New York Met, Johnny Unitas by what he accomplished as a San Diego Charger, and Michael Jordan by what he accomplished as a Washington Wizard.

I dont know any thing about those other sports...

BUT Ali was still effective as a fighter and was the worlds HW
champion after 1975.

Then it makes all the sense of judging Joe Louis' career by how he did against Rocky Marciano or Sugar Ray Leonard's career by how he did against Hector "Macho" Cammacho...

And Ali wasn't the heavyweight champion when he was shellacked by Holmes and beat by Berbick so I can live with the other close fights as the performances of an aging champion who fought on heart when he found himself bereft of the skills that defined him...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Tyson had a bad night v Douglas because he was inactive coming in. The Tyson that fought Ruddock would have dealt to Douglas. And to say that the Tyson that fought Holyfield and a prime Tyson are the same beast is silly.

Tyson hadn't fought in a whopping seven months...Neither had Buster Douglas.... They both fought last on the same card in July of the previous year....

If Tyson was over the hill at thirty then Holy was certainly over the hill at thirty four... Holy was supposed to be the shot fighter...Tyson was the betting favorite...Holy was coming off losses against Michael Moorer and Riddick Bowe...

[Tantum]

He'll eat your asshole alive.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

He'll eat your asshole alive.

Unless your name is James Douglas, Evander Holyfield, or Lenox Lewis...

And he did say he would make Lenox "his girlfriend" so perhaps he might have been planning to perform analingus on him...

Yeeech...

[Jaybee From The Castle]

Wow... You and John have quite a feud going...

It's no more a feud than when I tease a chimp at the zoo to make my 6 y.o niece giggle.

I still want to know how clowns like Mitch "Blood" Green , James "Bonecrusher" Smith and Tony Tucker can take Tyson the distance but Tyson can put Muhammad Ali on his ass in four rounds...

Ahhhhhh, but do you remember that I said 'Peak' Tyson? Before I elaborate, could you list those fights of his in 86-87, other than with the above opponents, you have a clear memory of, if any? I don't want to cite examples of fights you haven't seen/don't remember.

Oh- I liked Barerra's fight against The Mexecutioner...

Find me a Boxing fan who DISliked it!!

[Big Bad John]

It seems like Baby From The Outhouse (I can make puns about people's names, too) is going pretty far to avoid mentioning that Yanqui Diaz broke Juan Carlos Gomez's 37-0 streak with a first-round knockout.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Wow... You and John have quite a feud going...

It's no more a feud than when I tease a chimp at the zoo to make my 6 y.o niece giggle.

I still want to know how clowns like Mitch "Blood" Green , James "Bonecrusher" Smith and Tony Tucker can take Tyson the distance but Tyson can put Muhammad Ali on his ass in four rounds...

Ahhhhhh, but do you remember that I said 'Peak' Tyson? Before I elaborate, could you list those fights of his in 86-87, other than with the above opponents, you have a clear memory of, if any? I don't want to cite examples of fights you haven't seen/don't remember.

Oh- I liked Barerra's fight against The Mexecutioner...

Find me a Boxing fan who DISliked it!!

Mike Tyson was twenty four years old when Buster Douglas knocked him out...I don't see how a person can say an athlete is past his prime at twenty four years old with a straight face..I can see them make the case that an athlete hasn't reached his prime at twenty four years old...But if you do that with Tyson it makes the case for his "greatness" even harder...Was he in his prime at 30 and 31 years old when a 34 and 35 year old Evander Holyfield beat him...An Evander Holfield coming off recent losses against Ridiculous Bowe and Michael Moorer...

Tyson's prime lasted until a boxer figured him out...After he was figured out he never beat a quality boxer again...

End of story...

[Big Bad John]

Mitch Green figured Mike Tyson out, and he came fairly close to beating him.

[dempseyfire]

In the history of boxing, there have only been 80 or so heavyweight titlists, and 40 or so true champions. Ranking heavyweights from 1-100, I have him at around #50:

44. Pinklon Thomas
45. Michael Moorer
46. Chris Byrd
47. Hasim Rahman
48. Joe Bugner
49. Gerry Cooney
50. Peter Jackson
51. Buster Douglas
52. Jimmy Ellis
53. Tommy Burns
54. John Ruiz
55. Ernie Terrel
56. Eddie Machen
57. Harold Johnson
58. Tom Sharkey

The fight with Lennox Lewis was against a shot Mike Tyson. Mike stood in there and took some monster shots that showed he did have some pride and some heart (more than when he fought Douglas). .

? More heart than vs Douglas? That makes no sense.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

If Lewis was Tyson in their fight he might have literally killed him...It was so one sided and Lenox was so strong...He might even have driven Tyson's nose up into his brain as Tyson wanted to do to others...

[UpWithEvil]

Mike Tyson is the most overrated heavyweight in boxing history. The fact that to this day well-meaning boxing fans insist that Tyson approaches the all-time top-10 despite being shellacked by a mediocre Buster Douglas and whipped soundly twice by a creaky Holyfield are a great testament to the media hype that accompanied his Tua-like rise as a young heavyweight.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Mike Tyson is the most overrated heavyweight in boxing history. The fact that to this day well-meaning boxing fans insist that Tyson approaches the all-time top-10 despite being shellacked by a mediocre Buster Douglas and whipped soundly twice by a creaky Holyfield are a great testament to the media hype that accompanied his Tua-like rise as a young heavyweight.

Thank you...I remember the Tyson era like it was yesterday...My best friend was a bouncer at a club...We would marvel how tough this nineteen year old kid was...The club closed down before he got beat by Buster Douglas...

It's not that his fans want to put him in the top ten...It's that they wamt to argue he would have beat Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, and Joe Louis...

[actjac]

The answers here are like Clinton answering "That depends on what the meaning of "is" is. MY GOD!! answer the question.
My answer is Pinklon Thomas

[Ambling Alp]

Pinklon Thomas

But Thomas had gone through a divorce and had problems outside the ring so he wasn't 'prime'.

Trveor Berbick

Only Berbick was poisoned with gas in his hotel room.

Tony Tucker

Except that Tucker had loads of out of the ring problems with his management...

when you look at it 'prime' Tyson never met a 'prime' fighter... In fact it's amazing that any 2 fighters ever meet in their 'primes'... I beginning to wonder if any 2 ever have,

Is that ever true.
Don't know if you remember something I said in another thread.
I said that a guy could go say 50-6, (remind you of anyone?) and his supporters will find excuses for the 6 losses.
It won't even occur to them to look at the reasons why in the 50 wins his opponents might have a reason for losing.

Age is one thing, but most of the time it's just excuses.
Tyson's losses to McBride and Williams shouldn't mean anything. Nor should the win against Holmes.
However, in the vast majority of his fights, what happened is very relevant to how Tyson should be rated.
He should get credit for beating Berbick,Tubbs,Thomas etc. On the other hand, the Douglas and Holyfield fights should be factored in as well.

[Jaybee From The Castle]

Wow... You and John have quite a feud going...

It's no more a feud than when I tease a chimp at the zoo to make my 6 y.o niece giggle.

I still want to know how clowns like Mitch "Blood" Green , James "Bonecrusher" Smith and Tony Tucker can take Tyson the distance but Tyson can put Muhammad Ali on his ass in four rounds...

Ahhhhhh, but do you remember that I said 'Peak' Tyson? Before I elaborate, could you list those fights of his in 86-87, other than with the above opponents, you have a clear memory of, if any? I don't want to cite examples of fights you haven't seen/don't remember.

Oh- I liked Barerra's fight against The Mexecutioner...

Find me a Boxing fan who DISliked it!!

Mike Tyson was twenty four years old when Buster Douglas knocked him out...I don't see how a person can say an athlete is past his prime at twenty four years old with a straight face..I can see them make the case that an athlete hasn't reached his prime at twenty four years old...But if you do that with Tyson it makes the case for his "greatness" even harder...Was he in his prime at 30 and 31 years old when a 34 and 35 year old Evander Holyfield beat him...An Evander Holfield coming off recent losses against Ridiculous Bowe and Michael Moorer...

Tyson's prime lasted until a boxer figured him out...After he was figured out he never beat a quality boxer again...

End of story...

Far from it. So, I think it's a fair assumption, then, that you didn't see his other fights of 86-87. Too bad.

It really is a pity, they are all quite joyous to watch, not a dull second to be found anywhere. Back in the late 80's, I saw most of them within a week of the fight, I even kept the old VHS copies, though they're gathering dust, and rightly so, with the move to digital formats. I do pop in the DVD's on some quiet Friday nights in, nothing quite like those mid-80's bouts, and a sly bottle of Glayva, for a good trip down Nostalgia Lane.

Anyway...after enjoying several exchanges with you, and determined your knowledge of Boxing, I propose you actually WATCH 1 or 2 of them first, then we'll talk.

I would also suggest, but with with FAR more urgency this time, that you watch them before publicising your further musings about the year of his peak, and his ability in general.

Before you bone up on his fights, I do have one final question, if it's not too personal; just how old are you?

[Robinson]

]

I shall not

BUT Ali was still effective as a fighter and was the worlds HW
champion after 1975.

Then it makes all the sense of judging Joe Louis' career by how he did against Rocky Marciano or Sugar Ray Leonard's career by how he did against Hector "Macho" Cammacho...

And Ali wasn't the heavyweight champion when he was shellacked by Holmes and beat by Berbick so I can live with the other close fights as the performances of an aging champion who fought on heart when he found himself bereft of the skills that defined him...

I dont understand what you are saying ???

Louis was making a bad comeback against Rocky...neither were HW champions then.

Ali was HW champion up until 1978 when he lost it to Leon Spinks. You said Manilla....Ali
still was an effective fighter, still highly ranked, highly regarded and was the HW champion
at the time.

Berbick in 1981, was after 3 or so retirements and was more akin to your Louis-Marciano
analogy.

[Big Bad John]

The "Peak Tyson" argument is stupid and wrong. If he was only good for a year or two, he wasn't that good of a fighter to begin with.

[Robinson]

Mitch Green figured Mike Tyson out, and he came fairly close to beating him.

As close as Conn did against Louis ? Or Jones did against ALi ?
Or Peralta did against Foreman ?

[Robinson]

It amazes me on people who comment while having watched
less than half of a fighters career.

I will not comment on a fighter unless I have seen a good
many of his fights.

I guess opinions are generated by what one reads in a
Bert Sugar or Thomas Hauser book.

I wonder if Jack London's opinions on some of his era's
fighters are relevant too....

[TheOneIsHere2008]

To Jaybee From The Castle :

How can an athlete be over the hill or past his peak at twenty four years old?

I I never heard of such a thing, your obscurantist style of argument notwithstanding...

And living in the States I saw most of Tyson's fights in real time...

[Robinson]

Fighters and people can be 'burnt out' at such a young
age.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Fighters and people can be 'burnt out' at such a young
age.

I would think being burnt out at twenty four years old disqualifies one from greatness...