Mike Tyson In His Prime

[Big Bad John]

Well, Stanley Ketchel was shot when he was 24.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Mitch Green figured Mike Tyson out, and he came fairly close to beating him.

As close as Conn did against Louis ? Or Jones did against ALi ?
Or Peralta did against Foreman ?

I don't remember Muhammad Ali being knocked out in his prime...In fact I don't remember him being knocked out at all until he was a shot thirty eight year old fighter, on thyroid medicine for a non-existent thyroid condition, and exhibiting early symptoms of Parkinson's Syndrome...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

The notion that I am not familiar with Mike Tyson's career is beyond absurd...One could not live in the USA and be unaware of him...He was one of the most famous or infamous athletes of his era...

[Big Bad John]

Ali was only champion because of a series of crappy decisions. In retrospect, he wasn't even a top-5 heavyweight during the late 1970s. On the other hand, Joe Louis was a top-3 contender when Marciano faced him, and still a top-10 contender afterwards. He'd only lost once in the previous 15 years (twice if you include the first Walcott bout, which he should have lost), and he'd won eight straight fights since the loss to Ezzard Charles, which he'd taken on fairly short notice after two years away from the ring. During that time, he beat top fighters Jimmy Bivins and Lee Savold.

[raylawpc]

Well, Stanley Ketchel was shot when he was 24.

Are you speaking literally or figuratively??

[My2Sense]

So, I think it's a fair assumption, then, that you didn't see his other fights of 86-87.

Speaking for myself, I saw every fight he had from the Berbick fight until his rape conviction, and the vast majority showed Tyson simply walking in and wailing away at a stationary or near-stationary target.

No one he beat was genuinely great, not at heavyweight and not at that time. Bonecrusher and Berbick had spent most of their careers as journeymen before winning titles on one big upset each. Both faded off into obscurity immediately after losing their titles.

Fighters like Tubbs and Thomas were thought to have had potential at one time, but both had already been exposed and were considered on the decline when they fought Tyson.

Tucker was another fighter who looked to have potential, but it never amounted to more than that, just potential.

The story of Tyson's fights in that time, and before and after, was very simple: either he overpowered his opponent, or he was at a loss. There was no "Plan B", no real resourcefulness, no versatility.

Quick Tillis had already used almost the exact same strategy as Douglas did against Tyson, and even though he was very nearly washed up, he gave Tyson a tough fight all the way and lasted the distance. He also exposed Tyson's vulnerability to uppercuts, which only a handful of fighters ever really tried to exploit (but was a key for almost every one that beat him). If Tillis was still in his prime and had just a little more pop in his punches (as Douglas did), I can just as easily see him holding off Tyson as well. I rarely see this fight addressed whenever people claim that Tyson was "not the same" when he fought Douglas.

Tyson didn't look any different in his fights in '86 and '87 than he did in '90. There's nothing he did previously in his career (or afterward) that proves he could fight any better or differently against Douglas than he actually did. That fight simply exposed his weaknesses just as fights like Berbick and Spinks showcased his strengths.

[Robinson]

Well, Stanley Ketchel was shot when he was 24.

:)

[Robinson]

Mitch Green figured Mike Tyson out, and he came fairly close to beating him.

As close as Conn did against Louis ? Or Jones did against ALi ?
Or Peralta did against Foreman ?

I don't remember Muhammad Ali being knocked out in his prime...In fact I don't remember him being knocked out at all until he was a shot thirty eight year old fighter, on thyroid medicine for a non-existent thyroid condition, and exhibiting early symptoms of Parkinson's Syndrome...

Have you seen Ali vs Cooper ? Sure he was not knocked out...and did go on
to win the fight, but I have never seen Tyson anywhere near knocked down
by a 185lber.....

[Robinson]

The notion that I am not familiar with Mike Tyson's career is beyond absurd...One could not live in the USA and be unaware of him...He was one of the most famous or infamous athletes of his era...

How many Tyson fights have you seen ?

I have them all..if you like I can send you them...though having said
that I think most are online as well as a great deal of his amateurs.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I don't remember Muhammad Ali being knocked out in his prime...In fact I don't remember him being knocked out at all until he was a shot thirty eight year old fighter, on thyroid medicine for a non-existent thyroid condition, and exhibiting early symptoms of Parkinson's Syndrome...

Have you seen Ali vs Cooper ? Sure he was not knocked out...and did go on
to win the fight, but I have never seen Tyson anywhere near knocked down
by a 185lber.....

Of course I have seen the Cooper fight...Maybe it's me but I would rather get knocked down, get up, and win the fight in six rounds then lose to a 42-1 underdog...

And Ali weighed a whole thirteen and one half pounds more than Cooper in that fight... Kobayashi puts on that much weight at a hot dog eating contest...

[Robinson]

Do you believe that tyson would have been dropped by Cooper?
Do you believe Ali would have recovered had it not been for the
quick thinking smarts of Dundee ?
While I personally believe Ali had the greatest abilities to recover
from a good whack...I dont think he was beyond being stopped.
He was after all a man...a great fighter to boot.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Do you believe that tyson would have been dropped by Cooper?
Do you believe Ali would have recovered had it not been for the
quick thinking smarts of Dundee ?
While I personally believe Ali had the greatest abilities to recover
from a good whack...I dont think he was beyond being stopped.
He was after all a man...a great fighter to boot.

It doesn't matter ...Ali got up and TKOed Cooper...Prime Tyson got knocked out by a 42-1 underdog...

[Robinson]

He was 42-1 for some bookies....
he was less for others....so what ????


Buster Douglas at 6'4 and 230lbs was a
talented fighter. He had beaten and lost
to some decent good men. He had the
style and skills to upset Tyson, contray
to what some bookie is paying against him..

Who the heck seriously cares for a fighters
odd...hell I was a 25-1 underdog in one of
my fights and I still won in the first !..did
I feel or think like a 25-1 under dog..no
did Douglas no...

who cares what the odds that some guy
came up with were !!!!

[TheOneIsHere2008]

He was 42-1 for some bookies....
he was less for others....so what ????


Buster Douglas at 6'4 and 230lbs was a
talented fighter. He had beaten and lost
to some decent good men. He had the
style and skills to upset Tyson, contray
to what some bookie is paying against him..

Who the heck seriously cares for a fighters
odd...hell I was a 25-1 underdog in one of
my fights and I still won in the first !..did
I feel or think like a 25-1 under dog..no
did Douglas no...

who cares what the odds that some guy
came up with were !!!!

The odds demonstrate that Tyson was the overwhelming favorite and should have won the fight...

If Douglas was good why did he lose the title by a third round knock out in his first defense and not win another fight for six years?

What are we debating?

Mike Tyson is not the GOAT...

End of story...

[Big Bad John]

Have you seen Ali vs Cooper ? Sure he was not knocked out...and did go on
to win the fight, but I have never seen Tyson anywhere near knocked down
by a 185lber.....

It was Ali's fault. He liked to predict the round of the knockout, so he was playing around with Cooper in the fourth and got caught with a big left hook. He was young. He made a mistake. He learned from it. When has Mike Tyson ever learned from a mistake? And Evander Holyfield wouldn't have weighed much more than 185 pounds if he hadn't gone on steroids.

[Robinson]

GOAT is a silly acronym ...

BBJ,
Many would argue that Ali never truely learned from some
of his mistakes....his defence was never the best all
through his career.

His instincts and reactions however were....incredible.
His defensive fundamentals however were not.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

GOAT is a silly acronym ...

BBJ,
Many would argue that Ali never truely learned from some
of his mistakes....his defence was never the best all
through his career.

His instincts and reactions however were....incredible.
His defensive fundamentals however were not.

Maybe in Oz GOAT has not become part of the vernacular but we have two gentlemen in the States whom we consider as the GOAT of their sport- Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan...

[Robinson]

And boxing being a solely American sport :)

[Robinson]

So where was Ali ranked when he was the champion
after going to war vs Frazier in 1975 ?

How did YOU score the first Louis-Walcott fight ?

[Big Bad John]

He was the champion after Frazier III. After the Jimmy Young fight, which should have been a loss, he should have been ranked about #3. After the third Norton fight, which should have been a loss, he should have been ranked around #7. After the Shavers fight, which should have been a loss, he should have been in the bottom of the top 10. After losing to Spinks, he should have dropped out of the top ten. After beating Spinks again, he should have been ranked about #10 or so. Basically, without those crappy decisions, the Ali of 1976 to 1978 shouldn't have been ranked as high as Joe Louis was following the Ezzard Charles bout, since Louis continued to win, while Ali kept losing.

[Big Bad John]

Pretty much everything you Australians say sounds silly to the rest of the English-speaking world.

[Robinson]

Yes, you yanks observe the Queens English so well.

How is that metric system coming along ?

[Big Bad John]

Queen's English? That ridiculous crap? People around the world speak English the way Americans do, not the way the Brits do.

[I Feel Fine]

I love when the Cooper knock down is dragged out. As if that knock down to Cooper makes some of Tyson's outright losses look better, or as if Ali didn't later take on some of the biggest punching Heavyweights of all time in Liston, Foreman, Shavers, Frazier, Lyle, among others, and didn't show the ability to absord a punch better than most Heavyweights. Would Tyson at 21 have gone down from Cooper? Probably not. Did Tyson ever show Ali's ability to take big punches and not only survive but come back to win? No.

And as for the Dundee thing, come on, what kind of cognitive dissonance allows a person to see film of the fight where Ali clearly only gets about 6 extra seconds and still continue to claim that Ali would have lost had it not been for Dundee?

[Big Bad John]

Robinson's obviously never seen Clay-Cooper I if he's trying to insinuate that Angelo Dundee saved Clay from a knockout.