The greatest CHICANO fighter of all-time

[Chuck1052]

I also feel that Manuel Ortiz was the greatest Chicano fighter of all time. In my book, a Chicano is an individual who is an American citizen of Mexican descent. This means such an individual could be American-born or a native of Mexico.

- Chuck Johnston

[kikibalt]

I also feel that Manuel Ortiz was the greatest Chicano fighter of all time. In my book, a Chicano is an individual who is an American citizen of Mexican descent. This means such an individual could be American-born or a native of Mexico.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck,

My understanding is that to be a Chicano you have to be American-born, but been one what do I know.

[raylawpc]

For what its worth, Wiki defines Chicano as "a Mexican American (in the sense of native-born Americans of Mexican ancestry, as opposed to Mexican natives living in the United States). The terms Chicano and Chicana (also spelled xicano) are used specifically by and regarding some Americans of Mexican descent."

http://forum.boxrec.com/posting.php?mod ... =4&t=86086

[Chuck1052]

Tom and Frank, does that mean Carlos Palomino and Armando Muniz, both natives of
Mexico, are not Mexican-Americans or Chicanos even if they may be American citizens? In addition, both came to the U.S. as youngsters and attended American schools (including state colleges/universities in California). In addition, I think that at least one of them served in the American Armed Forces and/or boxed on American boxing teams.

For many decades, Mexican-born residents of the U.S. have been regarded as Mexican nationals if they are not American citizens. At the same time, there has been a rivalry between groups of boxing fans who are Mexican nationals and Mexican-Americans (Chicanos) for a long times.

- Chuck Johnston

[Big Bad John]

Most people who would be defined as Chicanos and Chicanas by Wikipedia have mixed feelings about the word itself. It has so many subtle implications, of mixed Mexican and American heritage and patriotism. People who aren't Chicanos are looked down on by those who are, and vice-versa.

Look at Jesus Chavez. He was born in Mexico and raised in America. He got deported after spending time in prison on an armed robbery case, snuck back into America and built a professional career. I remember vividly the first time I saw him fight, on the undercard of Lewis-Golota. Jim Lampley clearly stated that he would be deported immediately following the bout, and he was. He continued his career in Mexico, and was derided by the press as being a "Chicano," since his Spanish wasn't very good.

[raylawpc]

Tom and Frank, does that mean Carlos Palomino and Armando Muniz, both natives of
Mexico, are not Mexican-Americans or Chicanos even if they may be American citizens? In addition, both came to the U.S. as youngsters and attended American schools (including state colleges/universities in California). In addition, I think that at least one of them served in the American Armed Forces and/or boxed on American boxing teams.

For many decades, Mexican-born residents of the U.S. have been regarded as Mexican nationals if they are not American citizens. At the same time, there has been a rivalry between groups of boxing fans who are Mexican nationals and Mexican-Americans (Chicanos) for a long times.

- Chuck Johnston

I don't know, Chuck. Since Frank's the only Chicano to offer an opinion on this matter, I'm going along with whatever Frank says. But, in fact, there may be a subtle distinction between those who immigrated and the first generation born in America.

[locoxelbox]

DeLa Hoya never got mentioned hardly at all in the Mexican papers. I remeber when he won the Olympics,they called him an American. Which he is.

De La Hoya started waving the mexican flag to attract new fans..

[Aftermath]

Oscar de la Hoya waving a Mexican flag was not a marketing ploy. When he did it after he won the gold medal round in the Olympics, it was in honor of his family’s heritage. Both of his parents were born in Mexico. Many Hispanics of Mexican decent in California and the Southwest United States retain a Mexican cultural identity, even as they gain prominence in any chosen field.

[Chuck1052]

Tom, it could be that Frank is right, but the problem is that Mexican-born American citizens are NOT regarded as Mexican nationals. But if Chicanos are American-born people of Mexican descent exclusively, what would you call Mexican-born American citizens? I would say that they are Mexican-Americans. However, that would mean that the terms, Mexican-American and Chicano, are not completely interchangable.

- Chuck Johnston

[kikibalt]

In this article, you'll see that Carlos Palomino is referred as Mexican-born and Steve Lluevano as Mexican American.

Puerto Rico-Mexico rivalry packs a real punch

Miguel Maldonado / For The Times
Miguel Cotto of Puerto Rico will take his colors and pride into the ring when he battles Mexico's Antonio Margarito for the world welterweight crown on July 26.
When boxers from the Latin American lands face each other, representing their homeland well is paramount.

By Kevin Baxter, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico -- Carlos Palomino knew something was wrong the minute he saw the boxing ring laid out in San Juan's main baseball stadium beneath a blazing Caribbean sun.

"The ring's in the middle of the field with a tarp over it," he remembers of his welterweight title fight against Puerto Rico's Wilfredo Benitez. "Half the ring's in the shade, half the ring's in the sun. He's in the shade, I'm in the sun."

That wasn't the worst of it. In the week leading up the bout, promoters threw open the doors to Palomino's San Juan gym, allowing Puerto Rican fans to swarm the Mexican-born boxer and disrupt his workouts. And then there were the locker rooms.

"The dressing-room situation was criminal as far as I'm concerned," Palomino said. "I was sitting there soaking wet, sweating from the humidity. No fan, nothing."

Next door, he learned after the fight, Benitez prepared in air-conditioned comfort before going out and taking the world championship in a split decision Palomino still insists, nearly 30 years later, he really won.

But while that bout marked the beginning of the end of Palomino's career -- he fought just six more times, losing twice and retiring twice -- it also helped fuel one of the most passionate rivalries in sports. And it's a rivalry that will be renewed later this month in Las Vegas when Puerto Rico's Miguel Cotto puts his world welterweight crown and unbeaten record on the line against Tijuana's hard-punching Antonio Margarito.

Depending on who's doing the counting, there have been nearly five dozen world title fights between boxers from Mexico and Puerto Rico and most have been classic brawls.

"In other countries people go crazy to see a soccer game between Spain and Italy, Italy and England," said boxing writer Gerardo Fernandez of the Puerto Rican daily Primera Hora. "Well, it's the same ambience for a boxing match between Mexico and Puerto Rico."

It's not hard to figure out why. They are Latin American lands with similar backgrounds and cultures. And in both lands, boxing is revered.

"They're two countries in which boxing is the national sport," said Jose Sulaiman, president of the World Boxing Council. "It's the sport that's in their hearts. There's a special rivalry over which Latin country has the best boxers."

Adds Francisco Valcarcel, president of the competing World Boxing Organization: "When you have Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, for sure that will be a war. You are fighting for you, your country and your heritage and the history."

The rivalry even extends to the sport's sanctioning bodies since Sulaiman's Mexico City-based WBC recognizes three Mexicans and no Puerto Ricans among its 16 world champions while Valcarcel's San Juan-based WBO lists two Puerto Ricans and one Mexican among its 17 titlists.

But there's little disagreement that the fight that got the rivalry started was the 1978 super-bantamweight title bout between Puerto Rico's Wilfredo Gomez and Mexico's Carlos Zarate, who were a combined 75-0-1 when they faced off in San Juan.

"I was sick. I didn't want to fight," Zarate remembers. "I tried to get out of it, but I was told I'd have to pay three times more than my purse not to fight."

The brutal fight was over soon enough, though, with Gomez knocking him out in five rounds -- after repeatedly punching Zarate while he was down.

The rivalry grew more heated three years later when the still-unbeaten Gomez met featherweight champion Salvador Sanchez. And that was five months before they even stepped into the ring.

According to Valcarcel, during negotiations for the bout Gomez grabbed a pair of scissors off the table and charged Sanchez, who soon grew tired of the Puerto Rican's trash talking.

"He told me 'I'm not going to knock him out. I'm going to punish him,' " said Palomino, who served as an interpreter for Sanchez. "He had him out in the second round and he let him [go]. Then he just started pounding and pounding him."

And Gomez's fights didn't always end in the ring -- at least not as far as his fans were concerned. Valcarcel was leaving the arena after one bout when he came across the mayor of Guaynabo, one of Puerto Rico's most prominent cities, trading punches with a Mexican fan in the parking lot.

"The rivalry, I think it's more intense between the fans. There's more fights in the stands than there is sometimes in the ring," Palomino said. "And that's what fuels it, the fans. It's more than just a bout. It's like the fourth 'Rocky' movie. It's for the country."

Yet when Sanchez died in a traffic accident a year later a solemn Gomez, who would knock out Mexican Roberto Rubaldino five days later, left his training camp to fly to Mexico where he laid flowers at Sanchez's grave site.

"In the ring it's another thing. We have to fight. I've got to kill him," said Puerto Rican featherweight Mario Santiago, who earned a draw in his first title fight last month against Mexican American Steven Luevano. "But after the fight or before the fight, I don't have anything personal with any Mexican."

It's personal for the fans, though. Which is why the rivalry continues to thrive, said Bob Arum, who is promoting the July 26 Cotto-Margarito bout.

"What people forget about boxing is that it's a sport like other sports," he said. "In order to catch the attention, people have to care, they have to have a rooting interest. That's why the old fights, where they had Jews against Italians in New York, were well-attended and the fans cared. They identified with one or the other of the fighters.

"Now when you have a Mexican and a Puerto Rican, Mexican fans and Puerto Rican fans identify with that fight because it's a natural rivalry. It's like the Dodgers playing the Giants."

Only the Dodgers and Giants represent cities. Cotto and Margarito will be representing something far larger.

That's why Julio Cesar Chavez said he feared Mexico would never forgive him if he lost his title fight with Puerto Rico's Hector Camacho. And that pressure hasn't faded over time.

"I want to give this title to Mexico," Margarito said. "Because of the rivalry you try harder to win, you try harder to beat Puerto Rico."

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[Big Bad John]

Oscar de la Hoya waving a Mexican flag was not a marketing ploy. When he did it after he won the gold medal round in the Olympics, it was in honor of his family’s heritage. Both of his parents were born in Mexico. Many Hispanics of Mexican decent in California and the Southwest United States retain a Mexican cultural identity, even as they gain prominence in any chosen field.

You think that's why he came to the ring dressed as a torreador, with a mariachi band behind him?

[Aftermath]

Oscar de la Hoya waving a Mexican flag was not a marketing ploy. When he did it after he won the gold medal round in the Olympics, it was in honor of his family’s heritage. Both of his parents were born in Mexico. Many Hispanics of Mexican decent in California and the Southwest United States retain a Mexican cultural identity, even as they gain prominence in any chosen field.

You think that's why he came to the ring dressed as a torreador, with a mariachi band behind him?

That's exactly why. De la Hoya has never really been a big favorite by Mexican fans, but that has to do more with his persona and the way he has handled his career. He has stated numerous times that Mexican boxing fans tell him all the time that they haven't forgotten how he stopped Chavez. The way de la Hoya ran against Trinidad in the final rounds of their fight didn't endear him to many more Mexican fans either.

[raylawpc]

Tom, it could be that Frank is right, but the problem is that Mexican-born American citizens are NOT regarded as Mexican nationals. But if Chicanos are American-born people of Mexican descent exclusively, what would you call Mexican-born American citizens? I would say that they are Mexican-Americans. However, that would mean that the terms, Mexican-American and Chicano, are not completely interchangable.

- Chuck Johnston

I don't know Chuck. Maybe "Mexican-American" and "Chicano" aren't interchangable. I'm Swedish on my mother's side. When you are a naturalized U.S. citizen from Sweden, or a person of Swedish descent born in America, you are a Swedish-American. But I've got to go with whatever Frank says regarding Chicanos, Mexicans, and Mexican-Americans since it's his cultural background, and that would make him the expert.

[kikibalt]

Our cultural as Chicano's or Mexican-American or as the people from Mexico like to call us, "Pocho's, is certainly differ then the people from Mexico, other then the music that we like to listen too, and the food of course, beside those two things, we don't have much in comment, we don't talk or dress alike, we as Chicano's, Pocho's, etc,etc, have a cultural of our own, it may be hard to understand what I'm saying if you never been a Chicano.

[raylawpc]

Our cultural as Chicano's or Mexican-American or as the people from Mexico like to call us, "Pocho's, is certainly differ then the people from Mexico, other then the music that we like to listen too, and the food of course, beside those two things, we don't have much in comment, we don't talk or dress alike, we as Chicano's, Pocho's, etc,etc, have a cultural of our own, it may be hard to understand what I'm saying if you never been a Chicano.

Yes, and I quickly add that I wasn't lumping together Chicanos or Mexican nationals as "one" culture. My point, perhaps inartfully phrased, was that you, as a Chicano, would understand the differences and similarity between your two cultures much, much better than this Swedish-American.

Never having lived in California, I don't know any Chicanos except you - and I only know you from the internet and telephone. (Although I hope that will change some day, and we will meet personally!!) However, growing up in Oklahoma, I knew several Tejanos and their attitude was the same as yours - they were Mexicans only by ancestry.

[kikibalt]

Our cultural as Chicano's or Mexican-American or as the people from Mexico like to call us, "Pocho's, is certainly differ then the people from Mexico, other then the music that we like to listen too, and the food of course, beside those two things, we don't have much in comment, we don't talk or dress alike, we as Chicano's, Pocho's, etc,etc, have a cultural of our own, it may be hard to understand what I'm saying if you never been a Chicano.

Yes, and I quickly add that I wasn't lumping together Chicanos or Mexican nationals as "one" culture. My point, perhaps inartfully phrased, was that you, as a Chicano, would understand the differences and similarity between your two cultures much, much better than this Swedish-American.

Never having lived in California, I don't know any Chicanos except you - and I only know you from the internet and telephone. (Although I hope that will change some day, and we will meet personally!!) However, growing up in Oklahoma, I knew several Tejanos and their attitude was the same as yours - they were Mexicans only by ancestry.

Tom,

I know that you were not trying to lumps us all together, I was just trying to make the point that as Chicano's we do have a differ culture then the people from Mexico, yes we're proud of our heritage, but most of us don't have ties to Mexico, hell most of us don't even speak Spanish, my kids don't and the Spanish that I speak is slang. May be, I wasn't as articulate as I should have been in trying to make my point.