Prime Tyson V Prime Lewis , Prime Holyfield, Prime Holmes...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Some basic "facts" to proceed from...

Larry Holmes' fans say that if him and Tyson were in their prime Larry would win.

Tyson fans say that if Tyson was in his prime and Holy and Lenox were in their prime he would have beat Holy and Lenox...

What do you think?

[I Feel Fine]

Maybe I'm just a "Tyson hater" but I would favor all three to beat Mike. He would have a chance to beat all of them, and I wouldn't really be surprised if he won any/all of those matches. But I would favor the other three.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Maybe I'm just a "Tyson hater" but I would favor all three to beat Mike. He would have a chance to beat all of them, and I wouldn't really be surprised if he won any/all of those matches. But I would favor the other three.

I definitely have strong opinions...But I wanted to learn what others think...

I think I asked this question in another thread and granny or galt absudrdly "spun" it...

If all these men would have beat Tyson maybe it wasn't because of a character flaw on the part of Tyson but that they were just better boxers who exposed real flaws or shortcomings he always had...

[My2Sense]

I don't know how anyone can claim Tyson would've ever beaten a prime Holyfield. Tyson came into their fights with a clear cut youth/freshness advantage. The whole point of those fights for Holyfield was to prove that he could've beaten Tyson back in their primes. IMO, anyone still claiming Tyson would've won after seeing those fights is shamelessly revising history and simply going out of his way to overrate Tyson.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I don't know how anyone can claim Tyson would've ever beaten a prime Holyfield. Tyson came into their fights with a clear cut youth/freshness advantage. The whole point of those fights for Holyfield was to prove that he could've beaten Tyson back in their primes. IMO, anyone still claiming Tyson would've won after seeing those fights is shamelessly revising history and simply going out of his way to overrate Tyson.

That's why I asked the question...

To those that say that Tyson in his prime was a great fighter...If he was a great fighter he would have certainly disposed of Holyfield and Lewis in his prime...

I think the argument is that Tyson was lost without Cus and Kevin Rooney and that's why he lost those fights... In my counterfactual scenario Cus and Kevin Rooney are in the corner with Mike...

[I Feel Fine]

I do think that Tyson was a great fighter. He might even be a top ten Heavyweight, though barely, and I myself wouldn't put him that high. The problem is when people try to say that "He was the best fighter ever."

[My2Sense]

I think the argument is that Tyson was lost without Cus and Kevin Rooney and that's why he lost those fights... In my counterfactual scenario Cus and Kevin Rooney are in the corner with Mike...

Wouldn't make a difference.

Mike was as one-dimensional and flawed under them as he always was. Look at his fight with a washed up Quick Tillis (who fought like Douglas but without the energy or pop in his punches), and Tyson showed the same weaknesses there that he later would against Douglas.

Tyson was just waiting to be exposed, like all of Cus' fighters (ie: Floyd Patterson, Jose Torres). Cus' real talent was finding a weak division for them to fight in and then maneuvering them around what fighters would've exposed them. Even then, any of them that fought at the top level for more than a few years was exposed. Cus' way of preventing Tyson from losing to Holyfield would've been to not let Tyson fight him in the first place. Which, as it turns out, Tyson wasn't interested in doing anyway, until it looked like Holy was so absolutely shot that many people didn't think he should even be allowed to fight anymore - and that still wasn't enough to give Tyson the edge over him.

[Ezzard]

I pretty much agree with all the comments on this thread.

Tyson could win those fights. It wouldn't be that surprising but I'd favour all three to beat him.

[My2Sense]

Counter question: Where are Rooney's other fighters? He was so shit-hot as a trainer they should be falling out of his ears. Don't give me 'chemistry' either. Steward and Lewis hardly seemed bosom buddies but he improved Lewis. Shouting "3-7-2-1, bad intentions baby!" is great when you are knocking over guys who have either little ambition or fitness, it is a different field when you get in with a guy who is not scared and wants to win.

Rooney's reputation was based on the Pinklon Thomas fight, a fight in which he tried to get Tyson to out-jab the taller man before ordering to ditch the jab and "Throw 47-23-72, bad intentions baby, bad intentions!"

Can we have a Tyson debate without Rooney's myth being raised yet again?

I pretty much agree here.

As I said in another thread, people make fun of the guy that stuck a water-filled condom on Tyson's eye, but Rooney was just as inept, and over the course of his career was far less accomplished.

As I've always said, it was Tyson who made Rooney, not the other way around.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Counter question: Where are Rooney's other fighters? He was so shit-hot as a trainer they should be falling out of his ears. Don't give me 'chemistry' either. Steward and Lewis hardly seemed bosom buddies but he improved Lewis. Shouting "3-7-2-1, bad intentions baby!" is great when you are knocking over guys who have either little ambition or fitness, it is a different field when you get in with a guy who is not scared and wants to win.

Rooney's reputation was based on the Pinklon Thomas fight, a fight in which he tried to get Tyson to out-jab the taller man before ordering to ditch the jab and "Throw 47-23-72, bad intentions baby, bad intentions!"

Can we have a Tyson debate without Rooney's myth being raised yet again?

I pretty much agree here.

As I said in another thread, people make fun of the guy that stuck a water-filled condom on Tyson's eye, but Rooney was just as inept, and over the course of his career was far less accomplished.

As I've always said, it was Tyson who made Rooney, not the other way around.

I was putting forward the proposition that the reason Tyson lost those fights was because he was lost without Rooney and Cus for debate...I do not believe it for a moment but Tyson fans cling to that argument the way Kate Winslett clinged to the door she used as a impromptu raft in the movie "Titanic"...