Primo Carnera

[HomicideHenry]

Throughout the few years that I have visited this site, I have seldom seen anyone do a real in depth analysis of this man's career or his abilities and where he should or could rank among the heavyweights. While I have my own opinions on Carnera, I would like to see what others opinions are, and let's see if we all can't come up with a genuine solid out look on the man who was dunned "The Ambling Alp".

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Throughout the few years that I have visited this site, I have seldom seen anyone do a real in depth analysis of this man's career or his abilities and where he should or could rank among the heavyweights. While I have my own opinions on Carnera, I would like to see what others opinions are, and let's see if we all can't come up with a genuine solid out look on the man who was dunned "The Ambling Alp".

Carnera v Wlad...

Who do you have?

I'm not an expert but wasn't he dismissed as a bit of a joke:

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/vid ... Id=2491554

[My2Sense]

I'm not an expert but wasn't he dismissed as a bit of a joke:

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/vid ... Id=2491554

He was in his own time, but that doesn't mean we here have to go along with that.


If you want a quickie analysis, I would say he was the Nikolay Valuev of his time - whatever that entails.

He did have some fair boxing ability, and his sheer size could make him a difficult opponent for some.

However, his limitations were badly exposed in his losses to Sharkey and Baer, and there's no question he was a protected fighter during his title reign, for as long as his managers could keep him away from dangerous contenders (like Baer).

And although some people will disagree with me, I've always thought his title winning KO of Sharkey looked very fishy.

Then again, his KO of Ernie Schaaf (who went out from a late-round jab) initially looked fishy too, but it obviously turned out to be not so (seeing as Schaaf died from it), so perhaps Carnera was had more punching ability than was sometimes apparent.

Still, when all is said and done, the guy was not a great fighter or great champion.

However, it should be pointed out that although the media basically despised him and denounced him as a fraud, he was a popular box office attraction in his day. The notion that he was an unpopular champion is a false one that has been handed down by the media folks who disliked him, and wrongly perpatuated by quasi-historians like Bert Sugar.

[Big Bad John]

When I think of the greatness of Primo Carnera, two words come to mind, "size," and "jab." He was a lot like Nicolai Valuev, who's also a huge guy who has a great jab. But he had more than Valuev does. He had a right hand that could set off firecrackers in the next room. Also, a lot of his bouts were simply fake. In his early career, he fought men who were there to take a dive, or unable to do anything to survive long. In between everything, he actually learned how to box, and he had a few good skills.

In 1930, he started getting put in there with live bodies, and he managed to keep winning. He lost 10% of his fights, but he was beating legitimate heavyweights, like Ernie Schaaf and King Levinsky. His win over Jack Sharkey raised eyebrows, but it was a legitimate punch that sent the champion to the canvas. Sharkey simply bounced off the ropes like a pro wrestler and walked into it. He denied taking a dive to his dying day.

Ages and ages ago, I had a copy of the full 15-round fight between Carnera and Loughran on VHS. It deteriorated long ago, and for years I proclaimed - based on being one of the few people who'd seen the full fight - that Loughran deserved the decision, but in reality, Carnera outjabbed one of the greatest jabbers of all time. His power really made the difference in that fight, along with the 100 pounds he had on the former World Light Heavyweight Champion, and he scored a good win, despite facing a seriously challenging opponent.

[Robinson]

I always think that Carnera is a victim of his time and history
he is almost a joke, never given credit and is only really
ever seen as a highlight reel in his losses against Baer and Louis.

He in many ways was an instrument of Italy during the 1930s
the good and bad side of its failings and successes.
I seriously doubt him as to being a 'black shirt' or a facsist
he was no doubt a proud Italian however...

I think the 'works' in his career hurt him a great deal and his size
and apparent awkwardness made him a joke to many boxing
experts....and some of these so called experts use him as an
stcik to measure other 'giants' to.

I agree with BBJ in regards to his jab and size, he used them
well for the most part and when he did throw that right hand it
was almost like a bowling ball slamming down hill...nothing perfect
but inevitable in its power when it landed..

I always wish that Carnera fought Schmelling...that would have
been interesting.

Carnera is one of those guys I always feel a tinge of sympathy for,
he seems to be a nice man.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Once again, I am impressed by your breadth of boxing knowledge...

I am an also a huge NBA and NFL fan...On the NBA and NFL sites there are a few posters who truly know the history of the game but not many...

[HomicideHenry]

Another side note, Carnera is the only boxer I can think of who achieved just as huge of success as a professional wrestler as he did a boxer. While Louis and others tried their hands at it, they weren't as big an attraction as Carnera was.

[Big Bad John]

Carnera's also one of the few people who did more wrestling in his boxing career than he did in his wrestling career. He had absolutely no athleticism, but he fought in an era where a 6'1" wrestler could call himself a "giant." His size, coupled with him being a former World Heavyweight Champion in boxing, made him a box-office draw. But of course, the biggest draw in the history of pro wrestling is Floyd Mayweather, who got $5 million or so for a single wrestling match.

[granberry]

Carnera was defamed by Hollywood scriptwriter Budd Schulberg in his novel The Harder They Fall.

At the end of his life Carnera spoke about the agony that fiction writer Schulberg's false protrayal of him had caused him.

Carnera was a very well taught fighter. But of course in those days they had competent trainers.
They taught him to use his size with a jab and to use his strength in close.
Carnera's best punch was his right uppercut.
It is interesting that the the same right uppercut.
was the best punch of the other giant heavyweight champion, Jess Willard.

Carnera was a game fighter and had a great chin.
He was never KO'd ; His fights with Baer and Louis were stopped while he was on his feet.

He showed great bravery against Baer, and won some rounds in the middle of the fight.
The ref in that fight allowed Baer to foul blatantly.
The first rounds were completely out of control, as if there was no ref present.

Carnera "fought" Joe Louis, something few fighters did.

If you can, get a copy of the entire Louis-Carnera fight.

[Robinson]

One thing about Carnera is that he kept getting
back up every time he was floored by Baer.
Like a yo yo...he was back up determined to fight,
I would not say he was out classed, but he was
out 'gunned'.

Yet the sad reality is that the baer fight in HL form
is often used to discredit Carnera...to me when a man
that has death in his fists can not keep you on the canvas
that is testimony to ones talent.

I think Carnera was a lot more talented than Willard.

Like I said above I think carnera gets a rough deal and is
looked down upon where as alot of his peers get rated
above him.

The Harder they fall, while a good movie on its own (I have
not read the novel) it is cruel to think that it was based
on Carnera....the Toro Moreno character was just painfully
useless.

[Big Bad John]

You could say the same about Willard continually getting up against Jack Dempsey. You pretty much have to rank Willard above Carnera because there are so many questions about which of his fights were fixed. I'd also say that Willard beat a better crop of fighters.

[Robinson]

Besides getting up against that scarey version of Dempsey..
nothing about Willard has impressed me.

[ebeneezer]

He was never KO'd ; His fights with Baer and Louis were stopped while he was on his feet.

What do you think would have happened to Carnera if the ref hadn't stopped those fights when he did?

Did you see his face after the Louis fight?

[Jaclem]

...joe louis wasn't impressed by carnera..he said he had a left jab that wasn't bad, but that was it. he also said "that man didn't know how to quit."

granberry...where can i get the lous/carnera match? i've never seen even a brief clip of it. i do know it didn't get much theatre play at the time...maybe none. this was because of the tensions between ethiopia and italy at the time. i have the radio broadcast of just the announcer's opening, though i haven't listened to it for years, he says something about the crowd , no matter who they were for to be fair minded" i'll dig it out when i can.

there is also a kind of refernce to this in the movie "The prizefighter and the lady.." though it is fictional, when max baer is doing good against primo there is a very quick shot of a section of the crowd, all african americans cheering him on." i don't think many of those seeing the movie today would catch it.

[granberry]

...joe louis wasn't impressed by carnera..he said he had a left jab that wasn't bad, but that was it. he also said "that man didn't know how to quit."

granberry...where can i get the lous/carnera match? i've never seen even a brief clip of it. i do know it didn't get much theatre play at the time...maybe none. this was because of the tensions between ethiopia and italy at the time. i have the radio broadcast of just the announcer's opening, though i haven't listened to it for years, he says something about the crowd , no matter who they were for to be fair minded" i'll dig it out when i can.

there is also a kind of refernce to this in the movie "The prizefighter and the lady.." though it is fictional, when max baer is doing good against primo there is a very quick shot of a section of the crowd, all african americans cheering him on." i don't think many of those seeing the movie today would catch it.

Interesting.

Good to see you back here.

Someone else here would know better than I where to direct you for that film.

Ask Broncano, for one.

[dempseyfire]

A good, not great fighter. Often completly dismissed by people who don't know the history as a 'fake' champion even though almost all of his major wins were legitimate (his early career did have a fair numer of tank jobs but by 1931 he was fighting guys on the level)

His fight with Baer is fairly impressive if seen in its entirety. Carnera gets pummelled early on (and got a badly sprained ankle in the process) but manages to come back in the middle rounds and even win some exchanges with Maxie. The guy had more stones than many of the excuses for Heavyweights today.

[Cap]

Yeah. I rewatched the Baer-Carnera fight the other day and was a little surprised that Carnera was better than I had remembered. Baer got away with a lot of dirty stuff as usual, and seemed a bit unsettled when the big Italian didn't fold like a house of cards. I'd like to see the entire fight again someday. If Carnera hadn't twisted his ankle, it might have gone the distance.

Cap

[Robert in NYC]

Does anyone here remember Carnera the wrestler? Any stories to share?

[Broncano]

...joe louis wasn't impressed by carnera..he said he had a left jab that wasn't bad, but that was it. he also said "that man didn't know how to quit."

granberry...where can i get the lous/carnera match? i've never seen even a brief clip of it. i do know it didn't get much theatre play at the time...maybe none. this was because of the tensions between ethiopia and italy at the time. i have the radio broadcast of just the announcer's opening, though i haven't listened to it for years, he says something about the crowd , no matter who they were for to be fair minded" i'll dig it out when i can.

there is also a kind of refernce to this in the movie "The prizefighter and the lady.." though it is fictional, when max baer is doing good against primo there is a very quick shot of a section of the crowd, all african americans cheering him on." i don't think many of those seeing the movie today would catch it.

Jac, there's a 15 minute clip of the Louis-Carnera bout available doing the rounds among film collectors, the quality is not the best however.

Also what's easily available is the "Joe Louis Story" DVD. which came out a few years back. I'm sure websites like amazon or ebay would have it for sale. That one also includes some footage of the Louis-Carnera carnage.