Do I Have This Right?

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I was reading an article about boxers and the author divided boxers into three categories;sluggers, boxers, and swarmers...

The author wrote that a good boxer always beats a good slugger and a good swarmer always beats a good boxer...And a good slugger always beats a good swarmer...


It does seem a simple framework but it does seem to be a useful prism through which you can watch fights...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

What about back foot boxers, counter punchers, and those who do it on the front fot behind a jab? Or those who use lateral movement with the jab. Toney is a counter punching boxer. Lots of European fighters are boxers also but lead with the jab, as opposed to Toney who works off his opponents jab.

I think it is a bit simple-minded. Got a link to the article? If not give its name and I may be able to throw it up.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/styles.html

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Sonny Liston as a slugger? A slugger who sets things up with his jab? What pish. Personally some may say Frazier is a slugger but watch Bonavena I. Joe gets caught on the rangy shots of a real slugger in Oscar only to lessen the arc of his own shots and step inside to deliver tight hooks. Joe was a pressure fighter sure, but there is intelligence to it.

I think the article is slightly ill-conceived, could have done with research on top of the research.

I always thought Joe was a swarmer...That's why he was tailor made for George Foreman...

[Ezzard]

It' the scissors, paper, stone school of boxing insight...

Generally speaking, all things being equal, it works... But things are almost never equal and like Terry says the 3 categories are essentially an over simplification.

I don't think there's a problem in thinking of it in this way in terms of a very rudimentary understanding... And it's a good way to describe the sport to a casual fan.

Once you've found yourself at BoxRec's BOTP forumm though you can cast aside these vague, generic notions and throw yourself into the furnace of boxing analysis!!!

[TheOneIsHere2008]

It' the scissors, paper, stone school of boxing insight...

Generally speaking, all things being equal, it works... But things are almost never equal and like Terry says the 3 categories are essentially an over simplification.

I don't think there's a problem in thinking of it in this way in terms of a very rudimentary understanding... And it's a good way to describe the sport to a casual fan.

Once you've found yourself at BoxRec's BOTP forumm though you can cast aside these vague, generic notions and throw yourself into the furnace of boxing analysis!!!

The boxer beats the slugger because he tires him by deflecting his punches and then disposes of him by knocking him out because the slugger has used all his energy- Ali>Foreman....Yong>Foreman

The slugger beats the swarmer becuse the swarmer walks right into his punches -Foreman > Frazier ( I read an interesting analysis of the Foreman -Frazier fight...It certain was unique and thought provoking. The author said that by bobbing and weaving Frazier would get hit but not directly but because Foreman was so powerful it mattered not if they weren't direct blows)

The swarmer beats the boxer because the constant pressure overwhelms his defenses-Frazier> Ali in their first meeting :(

But the fact that Ali won the second and rubber match shows there are exceptions to the rule...

[Harvey Levy]

I think that the general rule implied here that swarmers beat boxers is clearly evident in two fights that I've seen. Vito Antofermo beaten Emile Griffith and when Gene fullmer beat Robinson in 1957. This fight I saw last night on ESPN Classic

[Big Bad John]

Sam Langford was a boxer-puncher. So was Liston. Look at how good Liston was defensively. Jack Dempsey was a swarmer-puncher.

[Harvey Levy]

Sam Langford was a boxer-puncher. So was Liston. Look at how good Liston was defensively. Jack Dempsey was a swarmer-puncher.

Would you say that Duran was a swarmer puncher or a boxer puncher?

[Expug]

Too many intangibles in boxing to apply a formula.
Whos in better condition, who wants it more, who has got more heart, chin, whos been hittin the rack early,who has been skirt chasing, drinking, etc etc.
Fighters are sometimes unpredictable like this. Lots of them seem like choirboys between fights. Lots of them aint.

[granberry]

The noticeable characteristic of Collins in his new alias as The/One

is that he absolutely BELIEVES anything printed or posted on the web.

Here he quotes from Monte Cox, known as Monte the thief for his stealing of the material of others

This article is crap.

[Robinson]

These BS formula works for armchair 'experts'.

Let them think what they want... knowing and
experiencing are entirely different things.

Using such general and absolute terms and categories
is just daft. These are men, and all differ though many
are similar they all differ.

[My2Sense]

Generally speaking, all things being equal, it works... But things are almost never equal and like Terry says the 3 categories are essentially an over simplification.

That's basically the way I see it.

Certain styles may be particularly troublesome for others, but somtimes styles blend and there's always various intangibles involved.

[Big Bad John]

Duran was a swarmer in his early years, and a boxer-puncher later on.

[Ezzard]

Thing is 2 styles always mesh together and creat something new: the fight itself. Many times though how these styles will mesh is not evident until during and after the fight.

If it were so easy Foreman-Frazier would not have been a shock result.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

The noticeable characteristic of Collins in his new alias as The/One

is that he absolutely BELIEVES anything printed or posted on the web.

Here he quotes from Monte Cox, known as Monte the thief for his stealing of the material of others

This article is crap.

BoxBuzz Post subject: Re: ALI Fans PAIN AND ANGER Still REMAINSPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:32 pm


Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:37 pm
Posts: 15077
Location: Sleepy New England Town For everyone's information and by Code Pink Collins request:

I can confirm that everyone here is a different person.....of course some are more "different" than others.

granberry is in error when he claims any two of you are the same person.....too many miles between the IP addresses to allow for such skullduggery. Now for those who don't know gramberry over the course of more than a year...let me assure you he is no one to get in an argument with. He has NO quit in him. If he has an opinion....it is static. He does not re-evaluate due to fresh data, new camera angles, or sworn testimony.

What he knows he knows and he will attempt to help you see the error of your ways. He will eventually, single handedly, inevitably, bring down the Ali media machine with all it's subtle and complex web of distortions. Sadly all that Ali did with his hard work will eventually be undone by this bringer of truth and goodness and bearer of "the light".

However the greater problem for each of you will take place when he is finished with that mission. Eventually he will turn toward you and prove that each of you are not who you thought you were, because he can be no less right about your "individuality status" than he is about Ali's contrived career.

You will eventually truly become the "Borg" that apparentlly is "Collins2000".

I wish I could somehow intervene in your behalf but once granberry has spoken the word, there is no going back.

I wish your various families the best as they strive to deal with your eventual fading into a single inevitable "gestalt" personality.

BAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWA

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Thing is 2 styles always mesh together and creat something new: the fight itself. Many times though how these styles will mesh is not evident until during and after the fight.

If it were so easy Foreman-Frazier would not have been a shock result.

Respectfully,the results were not shocking to me, at all...Even as a nine year old kid , common sense informed me that if you go in swinging against a bigger and stronger kid , who was at least your athletic equal, you were going to get your block knocked off...Some form of ledgermain had to be called for....

And I think Mr. Cox in his paradigm implies that the boxer, swarmer, and slugger are all of equal talent and ability...

[Ezzard]

Thing is 2 styles always mesh together and creat something new: the fight itself. Many times though how these styles will mesh is not evident until during and after the fight.

If it were so easy Foreman-Frazier would not have been a shock result.

Respectfully,the results were not shocking to me, at all...Even as a nine year old kid , common sense informed me that if you go in swinging against a bigger and stronger kid , who was at least your athletic equal, you were going to get your block knocked off...Some form of ledgermain had to be called for....

And I think Mr. Cox in his paradigm implies that the boxer, swarmer, and slugger are all of equal talent and ability...

I honestly think it's fair enough. Like I said it's just meant as a rule of thumb and nothing more...

[Ambling Alp]

Thing is 2 styles always mesh together and creat something new: the fight itself. Many times though how these styles will mesh is not evident until during and after the fight.

If it were so easy Foreman-Frazier would not have been a shock result.

Respectfully,the results were not shocking to me, at all...Even as a nine year old kid , common sense informed me that if you go in swinging against a bigger and stronger kid , who was at least your athletic equal, you were going to get your block knocked off...Some form of ledgermain had to be called for....

And I think Mr. Cox in his paradigm implies that the boxer, swarmer, and slugger are all of equal talent and ability...

The last part is very important. Equal in ability.
If one fighter is far superior to the other, he will probably win even if his opponent's style is "all wrong for him".

There is something to this theory but it's oversimplified.

Also, as mentioned most fighters aren't so one dimensional. ie Joe Frazier would be classified as a swarmer, but he had some "boxing" skills.
Ray Leonard would be classified as a "boxer" but he could slug or swarm.
Ken Norton was a little of everything, sometimes in the same fight sometimes not.
Evander Holyfield was a little of everything as well.

[ebeneezer]

Here he quotes from Monte Cox, known as Monte the thief for his stealing of the material of others

Didn't you copy and paste an article from Eastsideboxing and attempt to pass it off as your own?

Tee hee

[Harvey Levy]

Duran was a swarmer in his early years, and a boxer-puncher later on.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Duran was a swarmer in his early years, and a boxer-puncher later on.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

The author is getting slammed here...In fairness to him he elaborates a great deal and allows that a boxer might fall into more than one category or that sometimes a slugger does beat a boxer, a swarmer does beat a slugger, and so on....

In football they say a good defense will always beat a good offense and a "physical" team will beat a "finesse" team ...In basketball they say a team with a good post presence will beat a team without one...These general principles do not always hold true but they serve as useful guides...

[Harvey Levy]

Duran was a swarmer in his early years, and a boxer-puncher later on.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

The author is getting slammed here...In fairness to him he elaborates a great deal and allows that a boxer might fall into more than one category or that sometimes a slugger does beat a boxer, a swarmer does beat a slugger, and so on....

In football they say a good defense will always beat a good offense and a "physical" team will beat a "finesse" team ...In basketball they say a team with a good post presence will beat a team without one...These general principles do not always hold true but they serve as useful guides...

Yeah, it's a general rule in boxing. If a short fighter wants to beat a tall fighter he needs to get inside, usually by swarming tactics. As a rule short guys (or short armed guys) are swarmer's and tall guys are boxers. It makes sense, but there are always exceptions to the rule.

[elmersalsa]

Duran was a swarmer in his early years, and a boxer-puncher later on.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

Duran was an underrated technician according to William Detloff of The Ring Magazine.