Peter Maher book now available.

[donnellon]

The book "The Irish Champion" the story of Peter Maher, his opponents and their records is now available. More information can be got from the link below;
http://www.trafford.com/07-2554

[granberry]

Jack Johnson said Peter Maher was the greatest right hand puncher.

Joe Gans praised Maher's right hand.

[donnellon]

Granberry, that photo appears on the front cover of the book. Allways liked that one.

[ebeneezer]

The untold story of Ireland's only World Heavyweight Champion

Wasn't Irishman Paddy Ryan the world heavyweight champion also?

[donnellon]

Fair comment but Ryan was a bare-knuckle fighter and in truth his title was American?

[raylawpc]

Fair comment but Ryan was a bare-knuckle fighter and in truth his title was American?

I think Ryan claimed the world's title in defeating Joe Goss who, of course, was a transplanted Englishman. I think most people recognized him as the American champion because Goss had been campaigning in America for years by that time.

[Ambling Alp]

donnellon,
I guess I am going to have to ask the obvious- Why do you consider Maher to be the world heavyweight champion?

[donnellon]

Alp, back in 1895 Fitz and Corbett spent ages squaring up for a match that failed to materialize at the time. Corbett used his (then) highly rated sparring partner Steve O'Donnell as a bulwark against prospective opponents. When Maher ko'd Steve in 1, Corbett in public retired and named Maher as his successor, shades of Norton-Young.
Opinions were mixed in the press, public, and boxing fraternity. Most rated Maher as one of the top 2 or 3 fighters and felt that at the very least he was a worthy claimant and would have to defend against the leading challangers. When Fitz ko'd Peter near Langtry most papers and the Police Gazette considered it a champioship contest.
Maher's claim has suffered big time because of his poor defence against Bob and Corbett's subsequent return to fight Fitz. But at the time Maher had considerable support and his claim is quite similar to Harts (Jeffries picking the Hart-Root winner as his successor) except more people took the Irishmans claim serious at the time. Certainly he was nearer to a world champion than most of the abc champs since the 1980's.

[raylawpc]

Alp, back in 1895 Fitz and Corbett spent ages squaring up for a match that failed to materialize at the time. Corbett used his (then) highly rated sparring partner Steve O'Donnell as a bulwark against prospective opponents. When Maher ko'd Steve in 1, Corbett in public retired and named Maher as his successor, shades of Norton-Young.
Opinions were mixed in the press, public, and boxing fraternity. Most rated Maher as one of the top 2 or 3 fighters and felt that at the very least he was a worthy claimant and would have to defend against the leading challangers. When Fitz ko'd Peter near Langtry most papers and the Police Gazette considered it a champioship contest.
Maher's claim has suffered big time because of his poor defence against Bob and Corbett's subsequent return to fight Fitz. But at the time Maher had considerable support and his claim is quite similar to Harts (Jeffries picking the Hart-Root winner as his successor) except more people took the Irishmans claim serious at the time. Certainly he was nearer to a world champion than most of the abc champs since the 1980's.

Matt, that's a myth. Jeffries never proclaimed Hart champion by virtue of Hart's win over Root. Jeff was hired to referee the fight - thus giving the fight some legitimacy for the promoters, I suppose - but that's all he did. He also got paid, as I recall, $1,000 for his services - which he promptly lost at the craps tables.

He was quoted as saying that he didn't have the authority to bestow the championship on anyone.

[donnellon]

I have seen reports from contempory newspapers that stated Jeffries said before the contest began that he had retired from the ring for good and that the winner of the fight was entitled to be named heavyweight champion of the world.

[Ambling Alp]

I'm well aware of Corbett's proclaiming Maher the champion. However, everything that I have read said that this wasn't taken seriously by many people.
And if they had, then Fitzsimmons would have been considered the champion after beating Maher the 2nd time. Fitzsimmons would have been the champion and Corbett the challenger when they fought and I never heard anyone claim that.

Maher wasn't the best contender in the world at the time. Fitzsimmons had already beaten him once and was considered the top contender.

I think that Marvin Hart has more of a claim to being a champion. Of course some people don't consider Hart. However, when he fought Root, you could atleast argue that the top two fighters (atleast white fighters :( ) were fighting for the title.

Without "governing bodies" and their infinite wisdom and fairness the situation was sometimes cloudy.

I hope you don't think that I'm ripping Maher or your book. Writing a book isn't nearly as easy as some people think it is, and it's an interesting subject that you are writing about.

[raylawpc]

I have seen reports from contempory newspapers that stated Jeffries said before the contest began that he had retired from the ring for good and that the winner of the fight was entitled to be named heavyweight champion of the world.

Yeah, the promoters claimed that he said that. However, a report in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, reported that "For Jeffries to attempt to place the championship toga upon the shoulders of either Hart of Root . . . would be ridiculous. Jeffries himself, not longer than six weeks ago stated emphatically to the writer that he would not give the title to anyone, that he could not if he would. Jeff said then that the best man would have to earn it as he did; that the public, not himself, must be the judge as to who his successor shall be." St. Louis Post-Dispatch 7/2/05 p. 9.

In Reno, immediately following the fight, Jeff made two statements, as recorded by the Reno newspapers:

"Two better matched men never faced each other in the ring. It was a splendid exhibition of the manly art and I believe ith the rest of the audience that Hart won fairly and squarely. At times it was difficult to keep the men from hitting in the clinches, but neither offended more in this respect than the other. The winner of this fight, I hope, will fight his way to the point where none can dispute his claim to the championship." - Reno Evening Gazette, 7/3/1905 p. 1.

"Root put up a great fight and went down before a punch that would put any man out of business. Hart is a great fighter and is deserving of every bit of credit for his victory, for he beat a good man. I have no power to confer the world's championship on any man. If I did, I would give it to my brother, Jack. Hart is capable of fighting for the title and in my opinion well able to defend it. The championship, however, rests with the people. They and the press will be the best judges." Daily (Reno) Nevada State Journal, 7/4/05 p. 1.

[raylawpc]

I'm well aware of Corbett's proclaiming Maher the champion. However, everything that I have read said that this wasn't taken seriously by many people.
And if they had, then Fitzsimmons would have been considered the champion after beating Maher the 2nd time. Fitzsimmons would have been the champion and Corbett the challenger when they fought and I never heard anyone claim that.

Maher wasn't the best contender in the world at the time. Fitzsimmons had already beaten him once and was considered the top contender.

I think that Marvin Hart has more of a claim to being a champion. Of course some people don't consider Hart. However, when he fought Root, you could atleast argue that the top two fighters (atleast white fighters :( ) were fighting for the title.

Without "governing bodies" and their infinite wisdom and fairness the situation was sometimes cloudy.

I hope you don't think that I'm ripping Maher or your book. Writing a book isn't nearly as easy as some people think it is, and it's an interesting subject that you are writing about.

Alp, as I recall, Fitzsimmons claimed the title after beating Maher.

[donnellon]

I'm well aware of Corbett's proclaiming Maher the champion. However, everything that I have read said that this wasn't taken seriously by many people.
And if they had, then Fitzsimmons would have been considered the champion after beating Maher the 2nd time. Fitzsimmons would have been the champion and Corbett the challenger when they fought and I never heard anyone claim that.

Maher wasn't the best contender in the world at the time. Fitzsimmons had already beaten him once and was considered the top contender.

I think that Marvin Hart has more of a claim to being a champion. Of course some people don't consider Hart. However, when he fought Root, you could atleast argue that the top two fighters (atleast white fighters :( ) were fighting for the title.

Without "governing bodies" and their infinite wisdom and fairness the situation was sometimes cloudy.

I hope you don't think that I'm ripping Maher or your book. Writing a book isn't nearly as easy as some people think it is, and it's an interesting subject that you are writing about.

Not at all, I value your opinion. However your view is the retrospective view arising from how events later paned out.
Fitz was indeed the outstanding challanger but in the public eyes his reputation was tarnished as a result of the failure of the Corbett-Fitz to become a reality in 1895. This in main was a result of Corbett's skilful manipulation of the media but still the perception,(read Leo Militich's excellent book on the affair) was such, while O'Donnell was highly touted at the time(think Michael Grant) and the odds for Maher-Fitz varied approaching the fight but were about evens. Fitz was seen as champion only for a brief period as Corbett immediately un-retired and even Fitz never claimed to be champ once Corbett re-entered the arena. That's why the Sharkey-Fitz fight was never considered for the championship and in the main why Maher's claim has died away. But the fact remains that for 5 month period or so an awful lot of people saw Maher as the champion.
I consider Hart a legit champ but I was drawing the parallel with Corbett, Maher and Fitz as with Jeff, Hart and Root.

[raylawpc]

I think I remember reading that Sharkey claimed the title by virtue of his win over Fitz, but no one took him seriously.

[donnellon]

I think I remember reading that Sharkey claimed the title by virtue of his win over Fitz, but no one took him seriously.

The Galveston Evening News July 5, 1905.
"Before entering tho ring Jim Jeffries
waited on both men, stating that he had retired
for good from the ring and that the
winner of the fight was entitled to the name
of the heavyweight champion of the world"
I'm sure that we could trade quotes for a bit but it all depends on what you believe. I think Jeff at least gave tacit approval in order to accept his $1,000 but probably did not pick the two guys to fight. Anyway as ALP said the two men were as entitled as much as anyone out there at the time, Johnson, McVey and Gardiner been the other canidates.

[raylawpc]

We can trade quotes, yeah. (Being that it's Jeffries, I may have more quotes than you considering my 1905 file of clippings on Jeffries is about an inch thick. ) Two quotes that I supplied came from the ringside reports by the local newspapers. I'll see if I can find some more tonight after get home from work.

I think Jeffries' attitude to the whole thing was that Hart and Root were two of the top guys, and that the winner could call himself heavyweight champion but, ultimately, the public would have to decide. A wire service report in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports Jeffries saying immediately after the fight that "I guess" Hart became heavyweight champion by virtue of the win. Not exactly an enthusiastic endorsement or bestowal of the heavyweight crown.

Indeed, as I recall, Jeffries first offered up Fitzsimmons as champ immediately after his retirement, given that Fitz had been champ before him. And didn't Philadelphia Jack O'Brien claim not only the light-heavyweight championship after defeating Fitz, but also the heavyweight championship based on the theory that the belt went back to Fitz when Jeffries retired?

The trip turned out to be a financial disaster for Jeff. He got paid $1,000 for refereeing the fight. But then he promptly lost $5,300 at the craps table that night!! Adjusted for inflation, that's the equivalent of losing $130,000 today. Maybe that should have been a lesson to him that Reno wasn't his town . . .

[granberry]

donnellon,

How much did Maher weigh at his best?

[donnellon]

donnellon,

How much did Maher weigh at his best?

170-173 IMO
ps Some Puncher? p4p

[donnellon]

[quote="raylawpc"]We can trade quotes, yeah. (Being that it's Jeffries, I may have more quotes than you considering my 1905 file of clippings on Jeffries is about an inch thick. )

Jeff had a lot to say in 1905!
Anyway we're not that far apart in our opinion of Jeffs actions.

[raylawpc]

Not as verbose as 1909/1910. Those files are about a foot and a half-thick and growing!!

[raylawpc]

Hi Matt.

I have another quote.

A special report datelined San Francisco in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (7/1/1905 p. 6):

"Lots of people ask me if I will confer the title upon the winner of the Hart-Root bout. As i said when I made the announcement from Chicago, I can't confer the title on anyone; let the best man win it. I can't make any man champion by patting him on the back and telling him that I give him the title. It's the public that makes a man champion, and all the heavyweight aspirants will have to prove their worth before the public, the final judge."

Neither Reno newspaper reports Jeffries making any statement from the ring, and both included detailed reports of the fight.

[granberry]

donnellon,

How much did Maher weigh at his best?

170-173 IMO
ps Some Puncher? p4p

How tall was Maher?

[My2Sense]

I think I remember reading that Sharkey claimed the title by virtue of his win over Fitz, but no one took him seriously.

Yep. Title claims were tossed around then like hotcakes.

Another reason Maher's own claim (which consisted soley of Corbett "declaring" him the champion) wasn't taken seriously was that Corbett himself had already fallen out of favor with the public. He was still considered the champion, obviously, but people were already fed up by his reluctance to fight and his apparent reluctance to defend against Fitzsimmons, who had already knocked out Maher in a fight that made Fitz a top heavyweight contender in many people's eyes (albeit official rankings didn't exist in that day). Corbett's on stage appearences on vaudeville tours were heckled by cries of, "Why don't you fight Fitz??" from the audience. Eventually, the already-unpopular Corbett pulled what was universally considered a bitch move when he suddenly retired and "awarded" his title to Maher, the very fighter Fitz had KO'd to break into the division in the first place. Unlike Hart against Root, Maher never had to fight any kind of eliminator with another prominent fighter to get his title claim.

All previous title claims - Maher's, Fitz's, and Sharkey's - all went out the window when Corbett returned to the ring.

[My2Sense]

donnellon,
I guess I am going to have to ask the obvious- Why do you consider Maher to be the world heavyweight champion?

Well, for starters, it makes for a catchy title...