Gerry Cooney Question

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Was he a good fighter and a serious contender or was he a "protected" fighter who fought a bunch of "marks" and old men and was then was exposed by Larry Holmes...He did beat a thirty one year old Jimmy Young but Young was already fading...

I can rememember the fight against Holmes like it was yesterday...Prior to the fight Holmes called him "Looney Tooney", "The Great White Dope" , and said his elevator "doesn't stop at every floor"...After the fight he accused Cooney of hitting him below the belt...He said I knew Cooney "wanted my cup...I just didn't know it was that one..."

They are great friends now and work on a fund to help retired boxers...

[HomicideHenry]

Look at it this way, all three of Cooney's losses were against HOF fighters: Holmes, Spinks and Foreman. No one else came close to beating Cooney. Though he was hyped a bit more than what he truly was at his best, he no doubt had the single hardest punch [left hook] of the 1980's and had he fought Gerrie Coetzee [WBA champ at the time], its plausible he would have took Coetzee apart inside of seven-eight rounds and been a champion. He just wasn't prepared enough to have competed against ATG fighters, in my opinion, though, he was just a notch below that. He could have defeated any of Holmes' title defense opponents, just wasn't able to beat Larry.

[Jaclem]

my favorite memory of cooney/holmes is howard cosell's calling of the fight. (slightly paraphrased)..."can holmes take it any more...can he stand up to cooney's power...can he manage to finish...can he...cooney is down...cooney is down...it's all over ...his handlers have come into the ring.."

the hardest blows cooney landed were below the best, which was easy for us to see.

cooney didn't take a knee against michael spinks..he took his whole body...just to get away from spinks' barrage..and stayed down.

one positive statement about cooney...after his fight with george foreman, george said that if cooney had kn own how much cooney had hurt him in the first round he would have come on to finish old george..who was in the second phase of his career and a tad plump. alas, cooney didn't follow up and george smote him mightily, and cooney stayed smoted.

[My2Sense]

Was he a good fighter and a serious contender or was he a "protected" fighter who fought a bunch of "marks" and old men and was then was exposed by Larry Holmes...

I thought he gave a decent account of himself against Holmes, though losing. I didn't think that loss alone was anything to be ashamed of.

Having said that, I would favor your second scenerio. The guy simply never beat a live contender that was still in his prime. Young and Lyle were both clearly faded, and Norton was flat out shot. I mean, he never fought anyone like Weaver, Dokes, or Coetzee (who were all either top contenders or titleholders at this time) to get his shot at Holmes. I don't know how any of those fights would've gone, but I think if any one of them had brought his "A" game he would've had a good shot at exposing Cooney before he could get to Holmes (which may have been why his people didn't take a chance on putting him in with them). Cooney's sheer size and power made him dangerous, but there were still a lot of unanswered questions about him going into his fight with Holmes. Even his very power could be called into question IMO, seeing as all his big KOs came against badly shopworn fighters.

[bennie]

He was mediocre. Every time he stepped up, he got his arse kicked. An old Foreman nearly killed him.
Quarry was a much better white heavy.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

He was mediocre. Every time he stepped up, he got his arse kicked. An old Foreman nearly killed him.
Quarry was a much better white heavy.

How about Joe Bugner? Tommy Morrison?

[bennie]

Morrison was better than Cooney. He did beat Foreman. As for Bugner, he was just a survivor. Cooney at least came in with ambition.

[HomicideHenry]

I think bennie is too much of a hypocrite when it comes to Cooney. He was better than Bobick and Morrison and most other "white hopes" that came along; no he wasn't in Quarry's class per say, but nobody wants to take into consideration when he fought George he himself was coming out of retirement after many years, and George was his first tune up, same deal with Spinks. Coney fought harder in defeat.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

my favorite memory of cooney/holmes is howard cosell's calling of the fight. (slightly paraphrased)..."can holmes take it any more...can he stand up to cooney's power...can he manage to finish...can he...cooney is down...cooney is down...it's all over ...his handlers have come into the ring.."

the hardest blows cooney landed were below the best, which was easy for us to see.

cooney didn't take a knee against michael spinks..he took his whole body...just to get away from spinks' barrage..and stayed down.

one positive statement about cooney...after his fight with george foreman, george said that if cooney had kn own how much cooney had hurt him in the first round he would have come on to finish old george..who was in the second phase of his career and a tad plump. alas, cooney didn't follow up and george smote him mightily, and cooney stayed smoted.

Either that shows Howard had no feel for how a fight was going or it was much closer than I remember...

That's the reason, imho, there are so many controversial decisions because viewers pay more attention to the commentators than the fight itself...

[Jaclem]

..you nailed it theone. howard didn't really know a lot about boxing. but he was a quick study and had a good memory. he thought remembering the exact date of a fight made him a boxing expert. plus, he always had someone right by him during the broadcast, who kept feeding him information. after a time by doing so many fights he got a little better, but he was no don dunphy.

tv commentaters in general....again you have it. after a few rounds you can tell which fighter has the hbo..etc. contract.

a little off subject, but bill corum was doing the announcing for the first walcott/marciano fight, and at the end he said it "wasn't a great fight or an excting one" when all of us who saw it or look at it now on tape can easily see it was one of the greatest heavyweight title fights ever.

have faith in your own judging ability and score wjhat you see happening and not what you hear.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

..you nailed it theone. howard didn't really know a lot about boxing. but he was a quick study and had a good memory. he thought remembering the exact date of a fight made him a boxing expert. plus, he always had someone right by him during the broadcast, who kept feeding him information. after a time by doing so many fights he got a little better, but he was no don dunphy.

tv commentaters in general....again you have it. after a few rounds you can tell which fighter has the hbo..etc. contract.

a little off subject, but bill corum was doing the announcing for the first walcott/marciano fight, and at the end he said it "wasn't a great fight or an excting one" when all of us who saw it or look at it now on tape can easily see it was one of the greatest heavyweight title fights ever.

have faith in your own judging ability and score wjhat you see happening and not what you hear.

I don't think Howard would say he was an expert but he did have a great sense for drama and a distinctive voice...

Who can forget

"Down goes Frazier...Down goes Frazier"

"He's not fighting his fight...He's fighting his fight..."

[overhand_right]

Look at it this way, all three of Cooney's losses were against HOF fighters: Holmes, Spinks and Foreman. No one else came close to beating Cooney. Though he was hyped a bit more than what he truly was at his best, he no doubt had the single hardest punch [left hook] of the 1980's and had he fought Gerrie Coetzee [WBA champ at the time], its plausible he would have took Coetzee apart inside of seven-eight rounds and been a champion. He just wasn't prepared enough to have competed against ATG fighters, in my opinion, though, he was just a notch below that. He could have defeated any of Holmes' title defense opponents, just wasn't able to beat Larry.

I doubt it because Coetzee was a young prime fighter who could hit & would come out swinging.

Coetzee had the better chin and an equally good punch, and much, much stronger opponents.

The way Cooney hit the deck in rd 2 from Holmes right hand, would probably happen rd 1 v a big hitter like Coetzee.

[Ambling Alp]

Cooney is a very hard guy to rate.
As mentioned his biggest wins were against fighters that were well past it(Norton, Lyle, and young.)

How much critticsim should he get for the foreman and Spinks fights?
against Spinks, he hadn't fought in a year, and only 3 times in the previous 5 years. He did ok in the early rounds. Still, he did get whipped by a much smaller man.

Against Foreman, he hadn't fought in 3 years. On the other hand, he was fighting an ancient fighter and got destroyed.

I also thought that he fought a pretty good fight against Holmes. He did better than most of Holmes opponents in his previous title defenses. He showed that he had a decent chin, some boxing ability, and some heart.

My best guess is that if Cooney had fought the alpha bet soup boys (Witherspoon, Berbick, Thomas,Dokes,Page Coetzee,Weaver etc.) he would have won some and lost some. However, he never toook them on so he should be rated below them.

[RazorKO]

Look at it this way, all three of Cooney's losses were against HOF fighters: Holmes, Spinks and Foreman. No one else came close to beating Cooney. Though he was hyped a bit more than what he truly was at his best, he no doubt had the single hardest punch [left hook] of the 1980's and had he fought Gerrie Coetzee [WBA champ at the time], its plausible he would have took Coetzee apart inside of seven-eight rounds and been a champion. He just wasn't prepared enough to have competed against ATG fighters, in my opinion, though, he was just a notch below that. He could have defeated any of Holmes' title defense opponents, just wasn't able to beat Larry.

I doubt it because Coetzee was a young prime fighter who could hit & would come out swinging.

Coetzee had the better chin and an equally good punch, and much, much stronger opponents.

The way Cooney hit the deck in rd 2 from Holmes right hand, would probably happen rd 1 v a big hitter like Coetzee.

I agree, as much as I like Cooney Coetzee was much faster and possessed a right hand punch to match Cooney's left hook.

Coetzee also had a much more formidable chin taking Pinklon Thomas, Snipes, Tillis, and Weavers best shots.

[bennie]

I watched the Holmes-Cooney fight 'live' in a cinema in Leicester Square (those were the days). Holmes nailed him with that sharp right hand in the second, of course, and for a second I thought Cooney had taken it. 'Wow, maybe Cooney can fight!', I thought. Then his legs trembled and he stumbled to the canvas like a new-born giraffe.
'Real' fighters don't fall like that.

[granberry]

Cooney was never in shape. He always had a soft midsection.

He admitted after his 'career' was over that he always had an alchohol problem.

He was a New York media creation.

He lost to anyone who hit him back, even the pathetic Michael Spinks.

[Ambling Alp]

I watched the Holmes-Cooney fight 'live' in a cinema in Leicester Square (those were the days). Holmes nailed him with that sharp right hand in the second, of course, and for a second I thought Cooney had taken it. 'Wow, maybe Cooney can fight!', I thought. Then his legs trembled and he stumbled to the canvas like a new-born giraffe.
'Real' fighters don't fall like that.

On the other hand Cooney did get up and didn't go down again until the 13th round. He lasted longer than 10 of the 11 previous contenders that Holmes beat.

Obviously Cooney wasn't as good as Holmes, but he held his own and won a few rounds. That was a pretty respectable showing considering he was fighting a close to his prime Larry Holmes.

[ebeneezer]

He was a New York media creation.

He was a perfectly capable fighter as his wins of the New York state Golden Gloves and KO of a top Soviet heavyweight at an international meet proved.

His problem was the whacko twins who matched him horribly in fights that he could not learn from and hiring Victor Valle as his trainer.
Valle was good at teaching guys how to get full torque onto their hooks but nothing else. The idiot had Cooney punching a brick wall in training after the Norton fight ended up injuring Gerry's shoulder and putting him on the shelf for a bit.

Gil Clancy went on record saying that if he had Cooney from the start he would have had a much different career. If Cooney was with Gil he would have been in touger fights on his way up, developed a right hand to go with his left, had better footwork (he showed improved footwork in the first round of the Foeman fight under Clancy) and would have been far better prepared for a title fight instead of going from fighting journeymen and washed up former contenders to being instantly thrown in with the top heavyweight in the world.

[granberry]

Gil Clancy sells himself.

Just like Eddie Futch sold himself.

Just like Angelo Dundee sold himself.

They are baldfaced self-promoters.

[ebeneezer]

Gil Clancy sells himself.

Just like Eddie Futch sold himself.

Just like Angelo Dundee sold himself.

They are baldfaced self-promoters.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I like reading what Futch, Clancy,D'Amato, and Dundee have to say...

They have all trained champions...How else are you going to get an insight into boxing?

Here's a nice interview with Clancy:

http://www.fightbeat.com/judgejake/clancy.htm

I like D'Amato...He was the most introspective of the bunch...If boxing has a Zen he was it...

[My2Sense]

I think bennie is too much of a hypocrite when it comes to Cooney. He was better than Bobick and Morrison and most other "white hopes" that came along; no he wasn't in Quarry's class per say, but nobody wants to take into consideration when he fought George he himself was coming out of retirement after many years, and George was his first tune up, same deal with Spinks. Coney fought harder in defeat.

And yet at that time, Cooney was given a good shot at beating both of them, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was even a slight favorite to win one or both of those fights.

[My2Sense]

As for Bugner, he was just a survivor. Cooney at least came in with ambition.

Bugner stood in with Joe Frazier for 12 rounds and fought him all the way until the final bell.

Cooney might've come with ambition, but he was usually quick to have it punched out of him.

[Robinson]

I think its silly to say that Bugner is just a survivor...
thats like saying all boxers are just in it to win by
points and survive.

Bugner gave us some good matches to the contray..
the Frazier fight one of them.

I think Cooney did all that he was ever going to do.
He was a big power puncher with a vicious left hook
that fought the HW champion of the world in a pretty
memorable fight.

His two subsequent losses, as mentioned above, came
at a time against guys who were active, and top champions
while he was in-active.

I think that both the Spinks and Foreman fights could have
been different had Cooney been an active fighter at the
times that they happened.

Once he lost, it seems he lost his hunger to be in the
sport, like he climaxed and really did not know where
to go...but once the money started to trickle away
he went back to what he knew and got some more wins
and two big pay day losses.

It seems many hate Cooney and like to dis credit it him..
this is perhaps done to make Holmes seem less worthy
as an ATG (the discredit ones challengers angle) or because
those who were their at the time were caught up in
the hype and shocked when Cooney lost and never
came to anything....I guess like Ibeabuchi, Tua and
Grant a generation later.

I always found it funny how Bert Sugar was on the Cooney
band wagon as he bashed pas their best champs and contenders
Lyle, Norton, Young but when he was dispatched by Holmes
in 1982, Sugar was one of the many in the lynching media to
say "I told you so, he was a bum".

Well experts he was still a pretty good bum...and while those
'old men' were past their bests he still DESTROYED them,
and demonstrated what power he had.