Switching Nationality.....

[T.M.K]

Hi all,

without wanting this to derail and plunging into a racial debate - Howard Eastman fighting for the Guyanese title. I understand he was born there, I understand his links to two countries - but it just smacks of "I can't win the British back, sod it, I'll try the Guyanese route then"....

or... Jamie Moore grabbing the Irish title (which has suddenly become an "in" thing for all of Irish Ancestry to do) when he has been British champ, and is far above Irish-title level anyway.

or Mikkel Kessler suddenly claiming his half-Englishness in the build-up to Calzaghe. Clever, but did he not fancy the British title a few years ago then?

All part of opportunity? Clevereness? Desperation?

"T.M.K"


------------

ps: Now as someone who married a German, please do not speak to me like I don't understand the concept and/or the opportunities that being of 2 descents brings to a child - my boys are English-with-a-German-mother and at the end of the day they were born/bred/rasised/educated etc here. Germany is a very important part which will never be denied to them, but playing one off versus the other is not in my or my wife's nature. I know ODLH has been the best at switching in recent years: Mexican when it suits him and American when he needs to be..... but lets try to keep it in perspective and not go OTT.

Im really am asking out of interest, not anything else racial/social or anything else.

:-)

[gkt999]

Oppurtunity I suppose, though I dont like those that have won British Titles then fighting for Irish titles etc unless they are maybe challenging the Irish Title holder for the belt.

We have a Pro boxer with us who was born in England to N.Irish Father and English Mother but has lived in n.Ireland for most of his life. He can challenge for the N.Irish title, Irish Title and British Title as well as those others. That is the order we would like to see him progress, N.Irish, Irish then British, theres really no point in going from a British to a N.Irish title, really just going backwards.

[Asterix]

Hi all,

without wanting this to derail and plunging into a racial debate - Howard Eastman fighting for the Guyanese title. I understand he was born there, I understand his links to two countries - but it just smacks of "I can't win the British back, sod it, I'll try the Guyanese route then"....

or... Jamie Moore grabbing the Irish title (which has suddenly become an "in" thing for all of Irish Ancestry to do) when he has been British champ, and is far above Irish-title level anyway.

or Mikkel Kessler suddenly claiming his half-Englishness in the build-up to Calzaghe. Clever, but did he not fancy the British title a few years ago then?

All part of opportunity? Clevereness? Desperation?

"T.M.K"


------------

ps: Now as someone who married a German, please do not speak to me like I don't understand the concept and/or the opportunities that being of 2 descents brings to a child - my boys are English-with-a-German-mother and at the end of the day they were born/bred/rasised/educated etc here. Germany is a very important part which will never be denied to them, but playing one off versus the other is not in my or my wife's nature. I know ODLH has been the best at switching in recent years: Mexican when it suits him and American when he needs to be..... but lets try to keep it in perspective and not go OTT.

Im really am asking out of interest, not anything else racial/social or anything else.

:-)

For Eastman it's probably a way to earn more money. For Moore it's probably really good exposure. For Kessler, he has always said he's Danish but has an English Mother, but of course they're going to play that up when he's fighting in Britain.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Hi all,

without wanting this to derail and plunging into a racial debate - Howard Eastman fighting for the Guyanese title. I understand he was born there, I understand his links to two countries - but it just smacks of "I can't win the British back, sod it, I'll try the Guyanese route then"....

or... Jamie Moore grabbing the Irish title (which has suddenly become an "in" thing for all of Irish Ancestry to do) when he has been British champ, and is far above Irish-title level anyway.

or Mikkel Kessler suddenly claiming his half-Englishness in the build-up to Calzaghe. Clever, but did he not fancy the British title a few years ago then?

All part of opportunity? Clevereness? Desperation?

"T.M.K"


------------

ps: Now as someone who married a German, please do not speak to me like I don't understand the concept and/or the opportunities that being of 2 descents brings to a child - my boys are English-with-a-German-mother and at the end of the day they were born/bred/rasised/educated etc here. Germany is a very important part which will never be denied to them, but playing one off versus the other is not in my or my wife's nature. I know ODLH has been the best at switching in recent years: Mexican when it suits him and American when he needs to be..... but lets try to keep it in perspective and not go OTT.

Im really am asking out of interest, not anything else racial/social or anything else.

:-)

I'm Welsh/Peruvian and born in England.

You can't understand how a person of dual nationality feels unless you are one - you aren't your sons - you are better asking your sons. (if they are old enough)

Because I'm English does not mean I have to support the England football team for example, lots of English people don't - especially around Liverpool and Manchester where their allegiance is to the Republic of Ireland - maybe thats to do with England never playing up north apart from the era wembley was being built.

I wasn't forced to think one way or nationality was better than the other though English and not Spanish was spoken in our home, but being Peruvian is a very important part of who I am and I'm not going to deny myself any alligiances towards that country because I was born English.

Its not all one or the other.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Nothing new, Sam Langford in the earlty 1900s was Black Canadian raised and fought for Canadian, Australian and 'World Colored' Heavyweight titles. Lennox Lewis was nothing new, Canada has never been able to hang onto its top boxers Its natural to go where the best financial support is. Do you really think Hatton wouldnt become a naturalised American if he could double his purse?

[DavidPayne]

Henry Akinwande did the same thing, wanted to be British until it did him no favours.

[Poncey]

Hi all,

without wanting this to derail and plunging into a racial debate - Howard Eastman fighting for the Guyanese title. I understand he was born there, I understand his links to two countries - but it just smacks of "I can't win the British back, sod it, I'll try the Guyanese route then"....

or... Jamie Moore grabbing the Irish title (which has suddenly become an "in" thing for all of Irish Ancestry to do) when he has been British champ, and is far above Irish-title level anyway.

or Mikkel Kessler suddenly claiming his half-Englishness in the build-up to Calzaghe. Clever, but did he not fancy the British title a few years ago then?

All part of opportunity? Clevereness? Desperation?

"T.M.K"


------------

ps: Now as someone who married a German, please do not speak to me like I don't understand the concept and/or the opportunities that being of 2 descents brings to a child - my boys are English-with-a-German-mother and at the end of the day they were born/bred/rasised/educated etc here. Germany is a very important part which will never be denied to them, but playing one off versus the other is not in my or my wife's nature. I know ODLH has been the best at switching in recent years: Mexican when it suits him and American when he needs to be..... but lets try to keep it in perspective and not go OTT.

Im really am asking out of interest, not anything else racial/social or anything else.

:-)

I'm Welsh/Peruvian and born in England.

You can't understand how a person of dual nationality feels unless you are one - you aren't your sons - you are better asking your sons. (if they are old enough)

Because I'm English does not mean I have to support the England football team for example, lots of English people don't - especially around Liverpool and Manchester where their allegiance is to the Republic of Ireland - maybe thats to do with England never playing up north apart from the era wembley was being built.

I wasn't forced to think one way or nationality was better than the other though English and not Spanish was spoken in our home, but being Peruvian is a very important part of who I am and I'm not going to deny myself any alligiances towards that country because I was born English.

Its not all one or the other.

I couldn't agree more Carlos. I'm Irish/Belgium from my Dad, Italian and English from my Mum. I'm less English than Irish and Italian, I attempt to speak all languages (although people that have met me wonder which I speak the best 8) ) and I don't consider myself to be English.

I think your Nationality isn't dependent on where you were born, but the culture and family environment you were brought up in. I'm proud of my ancestry, and of England where I live. Although I was born here, I lived in Singapore during my childhood, but to say it is wrong to be able to fight for any of the titles (the Belgium title is the equivalant of the WBC title, don't you know) isn't right.

How many people on this board consider Joe Calzaghe to be English?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Hi all,

without wanting this to derail and plunging into a racial debate - Howard Eastman fighting for the Guyanese title. I understand he was born there, I understand his links to two countries - but it just smacks of "I can't win the British back, sod it, I'll try the Guyanese route then"....

or... Jamie Moore grabbing the Irish title (which has suddenly become an "in" thing for all of Irish Ancestry to do) when he has been British champ, and is far above Irish-title level anyway.

or Mikkel Kessler suddenly claiming his half-Englishness in the build-up to Calzaghe. Clever, but did he not fancy the British title a few years ago then?

All part of opportunity? Clevereness? Desperation?

"T.M.K"


------------

ps: Now as someone who married a German, please do not speak to me like I don't understand the concept and/or the opportunities that being of 2 descents brings to a child - my boys are English-with-a-German-mother and at the end of the day they were born/bred/rasised/educated etc here. Germany is a very important part which will never be denied to them, but playing one off versus the other is not in my or my wife's nature. I know ODLH has been the best at switching in recent years: Mexican when it suits him and American when he needs to be..... but lets try to keep it in perspective and not go OTT.

Im really am asking out of interest, not anything else racial/social or anything else.

:-)

I'm Welsh/Peruvian and born in England.

You can't understand how a person of dual nationality feels unless you are one - you aren't your sons - you are better asking your sons. (if they are old enough)

Because I'm English does not mean I have to support the England football team for example, lots of English people don't - especially around Liverpool and Manchester where their allegiance is to the Republic of Ireland - maybe thats to do with England never playing up north apart from the era wembley was being built.

I wasn't forced to think one way or nationality was better than the other though English and not Spanish was spoken in our home, but being Peruvian is a very important part of who I am and I'm not going to deny myself any alligiances towards that country because I was born English.

Its not all one or the other.

I couldn't agree more Carlos. I'm Irish/Belgium from my Dad, Italian and English from my Mum. I'm less English than Irish and Italian, I attempt to speak all languages (although people that have met me wonder which I speak the best 8) ) and I don't consider myself to be English.

I think your Nationality isn't dependent on where you were born, but the culture and family environment you were brought up in. I'm proud of my ancestry, and of England where I live. Although I was born here, I lived in Singapore during my childhood, but to say it is wrong to be able to fight for any of the titles (the Belgium title is the equivalant of the WBC title, don't you know) isn't right.

How many people on this board consider Joe Calzaghe to be English?

I think it is a typical mindset of a people who have been a colonial power (in the case of the British - the biggest of all time) 'why would you want to be anything other than British? you have won the lottery of life blah blah blah' as you have stated in your personal experience - You can have allegiance to more than one country - plenty of people do in the old colonies - you have people who are Italian-American, Chinese-Australian, Japanese-Brazilian etc and no-one questions it!

If I would have been good enough, I would have happily represented Peru over GB at the olympics! It would have been an honour but not a traitorous act in my opinion.

[Old bones Ian]

I seem to remember that Matthew Le Tissier could of played for any of the home countreis because he came from the channel islands, is that right?

[Poncey]

I seem to remember that Matthew Le Tissier could of played for any of the home countreis because he came from the channel islands, is that right?

Yep. He was born there so could've played for France as well. O/T he played at Lundekvam's testamonial a few weeks back and was easily the best player on the field.

Legend, even if he does wear boaters and drink Malibu.

[metropol]

I couldn't agree more Carlos. I'm Irish/Belgium from my Dad, Italian and English from my Mum. I'm less English than Irish and Italian, I attempt to speak all languages (although people that have met me wonder which I speak the best 8) ) and I don't consider myself to be English.

I think your Nationality isn't dependent on where you were born, but the culture and family environment you were brought up in. I'm proud of my ancestry, and of England where I live. Although I was born here, I lived in Singapore during my childhood, but to say it is wrong to be able to fight for any of the titles (the Belgium title is the equivalant of the WBC title, don't you know) isn't right.

How many people on this board consider Joe Calzaghe to be English?

Do you speak Irish? Im Irish and went through the subscribed course in school and unfortunatley cant speak it.
I would joe welsh and british of Italian decent.
There are people who consider themselves a certain nationality but are seen as another john duddy is a prime example of this. There are inconsistencies here on boxrec andy lee is Irish although he was born in england should this not go for duddy as well?
As for fighting for Irish titles moore did it for more fans I think as once youve won a british title theres no point going for an Irish one as it carries less prestige for an english man.

[Poncey]

I couldn't agree more Carlos. I'm Irish/Belgium from my Dad, Italian and English from my Mum. I'm less English than Irish and Italian, I attempt to speak all languages (although people that have met me wonder which I speak the best 8) ) and I don't consider myself to be English.

I think your Nationality isn't dependent on where you were born, but the culture and family environment you were brought up in. I'm proud of my ancestry, and of England where I live. Although I was born here, I lived in Singapore during my childhood, but to say it is wrong to be able to fight for any of the titles (the Belgium title is the equivalant of the WBC title, don't you know) isn't right.

How many people on this board consider Joe Calzaghe to be English?

Do you speak Irish? Im Irish and went through the subscribed course in school and unfortunatley cant speak it.
I would joe welsh and british of Italian decent.
There are people who consider themselves a certain nationality but are seen as another john duddy is a prime example of this. There are inconsistencies here on boxrec andy lee is Irish although he was born in england should this not go for duddy as well?
As for fighting for Irish titles moore did it for more fans I think as once youve won a british title theres no point going for an Irish one as it carries less prestige for an english man.

You missed the whole John Duddy shit shtorm last year. That was REALLY fun.

TBH, I'm better at Italian. Much easier! I find it harder to understand and enunciate in Irish. My Dad taught me, so I didn't have a very dependable teacher.

I agree with Carlos in that unless you actually are multi-national, you can't really understand what it feels like.

[Old bones Ian]

Didn't Joe Calzaghe box for Italy in the Am's? Think it might have been to do with being over looked for the olympics

[Old bones Ian]

I seem to remember that Matthew Le Tissier could of played for any of the home countreis because he came from the channel islands, is that right?

Yep. He was born there so could've played for France as well. O/T he played at Lundekvam's testamonial a few weeks back and was easily the best player on the field.

Legend, even if he does wear boaters and drink Malibu.

Haha i saw him in that pub/club just by the Red Funnell dock, his dress sense has not improved with age, but he said hello when i stood next to him at the bar. thats good enough for me.

One of the best natural players i've ever seen, shame Chelsea never signed him.
But we got Zola instead, and he was the best natural player i've ever seen

[metropol]

You missed the whole John Duddy shit shtorm last year. That was REALLY fun.

TBH, I'm better at Italian. Much easier! I find it harder to understand and enunciate in Irish. My Dad taught me, so I didn't have a very dependable teacher.

I agree with Carlos in that unless you actually are multi-national, you can't really understand what it feels like.

Why what happened over duddy last year? btw its really a shame and embarasing when someone that wasnt born irish can speak the language and I cant, like a well known american comedian has done over here.

[T.M.K]

Henry Akinwande did the same thing, wanted to be British until it did him no favours.

GREAT EXAMPLE!

One minute he wants to be British & grabs British, Commonwealth and European titles. As he fights Lennox Lewis he is already US-domicilied but using the British angle when needed..... he has a stint as being Nigerian/African before being seen on TV fighting in the US and shouting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" into a TV camera....

If he suddenly came back to the UK and wanted to fight for the British title - would it not be a bit of a piss-take?


"T.M.K"

[T.M.K]

How many people on this board consider Joe Calzaghe to be English?

Okay let's roll with this one then:

Calzaghe gets hammered by Jones, loses a couple more and decides he'd like a Lonsdale title before he retires. To get the shot he needs a warm-up, and as no-one is around to fight him for the Welsh area title he decides to facs someone for the English title.

When questioned about why he's fighting for it he replies "I was born in England".

Surely aftre all the years of Wales Wales Wales that would be (at nicest) "sneaky"???

Would it be different if he suddenly fought for the Sardinian title?


"T.M.K"



ps: please, remember, just trying to have an interesting discussion - been good so far, let's not let it degenerate :-)

[liamlion]

If a cow is born in a stable, does it make it a horse?

Cleary Calzaghe is not english, he is a welshman and also a plastic Sardinian.

[Old bones Ian]

Well my Mum and Dad are both from the Isle of Wight, so that makes me my own cousin, and my brother also my uncle.

We like our own over here.

[Poncey]

Well my Mum and Dad are both from the Isle of Wight, so that makes me my own cousin, and my brother also my uncle.

We like our own over here.

Weren't you all in The Wickerman?

[Coco]

It's all about money really, people will take these avenues to progress, look at the Irish football team

[metropol]

It's all about money really, people will take these avenues to progress, look at the Irish football team

Yeah that benefited us well when we faced england with a team full of english players although most of our best players were all Irish.

[BigEars]

I seem to remember that Matthew Le Tissier could of played for any of the home countreis because he came from the channel islands, is that right?

Actually it's not realised by most but up until recently you could play for any of the UK football countries provided you qualified for one of them.

Northern Irish Goalkeeper Maik Taylor was born in Germany to an English father and a German mother but qualified to play for the North due to his UK passport.

Personally I'm okay with people's dual nationality allowing them to fight for various national titles once they in some way actually feel part of that nationality and aren't just doing it to further their career.

While Jamie Moore did on one hand win the Irish title to help gather a fanbase(further his career) I do believe he was genuinely proud of winning the belt and although he's said himself he's an Englishman, he's extremely proud of his Irish roots(his mother is Irish).

Some over here questioned Moore being allowed to fight for the title(which he was perfectly entitled to under BUI rules), however Steve Collins(who was an analyst in studio) responded to this quite strongly. Steve's own son was born in England and he remarked that if any journalist would tell him that his son doesn't deserve to fight for the Irish title that's he'd have very harsh 'words' for them.

What I'm not sure I'm sure I'm okay with was someone like Marc Callaghan fighting for the Irish title. Marc posts here and seems a nice guy so nothing personally against him but he qualified to fight for the Irish title through having one Irish grandparent. IMO that's not really a strong enough link to the country to contest its national title. However we only actually have 2 Irish Super-Bantamweights at the moment so without the likes of Marc there wouldn't be Irish title fights for Paulie Hyland who deserves to be Irish champion.

I suppose if we had more fighters in Ireland I'd like the specifications to fight for an Irish title to be tougher but we just don't have the depth really so we need the current requirements to be a little loose.

I think what the original poster also fails to understand is people with dual-nationality who feel equally part of each nation. He probably feels the 'I'm British so why would I want to be anything else emotion' that someone else pointed out earlier.
Matthew Macklin to me is a very good example of dual-nationality.

Macklin was born in England to 2 Irish parents. Although raised in Birmingham he often spent up a large amount of time in Ireland(upto a quarter of a year) while growing up and even managed to become very talented at Ireland's national sport of hurling(not something anyone can just pick up), playing for his county(and my own) Tipperary at U21 level.

Macklin's not just the type who is proud of his Irish roots but is proud to be Irish(aswell as English).

It is very possible, especially considering he was born there and I believe lives there, that Howard Eastman feels every bit as Guyanan as he does British.

[T.M.K]

What I'm not sure I'm sure I'm okay with was someone like Marc Callaghan fighting for the Irish title. Marc posts here and seems a nice guy so nothing personally against him but he qualified to fight for the Irish title through having one Irish grandparent. IMO that's not really a strong enough link to the country to contest its national title.

Very good case-in-point.

I think what the original poster also fails to understand is people with dual-nationality who feel equally part of each nation. He probably feels the 'I'm British so why would I want to be anything else emotion' that someone else pointed out earlier.

"The original poster" understand fully, but feels it is far too easy for some people tp chop and change when/as they feel like it. I am not blaming them per se, but have always felt the rulings were wrong.... the Welsh rugby player who got in the side on the basis of one grandfather being Welsh. Everyone else in the family was English but he wasn't good enough for the squad - so he goes to play for Wales...then finds out his grandfather wasn't Welsh at all!!!

It is very possible, especially considering he was born there and I believe lives there, that Howard Eastman feels every bit as Guyanan as he does British.

Well then wouldn't it have looked less cynical for Eastman to have held the title before - anot just when his luck ran out at British level?

I personally say good luck to Jamie Moore as he did BOTH before moving on up - but had he failed at all levels, got stumped for the British again, and THEN done it, it looks more desperate does it not?

"T.M.K"

ps: Also, hasn't there been an All-Ireland title for years anyway? Why this sudden craze with Irish titles has come about... it's not exactly a "new" concept.

[Mowgli]

I remember Khan threatening to box for Pakistan in the Olympics if the British selectors weren't going to let him box for his country of birth,that year we weren't going to have any boxers representing us,it did the trick mind.