Classic American West Coast Boxing

[Expug]

Im with ya Bennie.
The amateur scene doesnt really interest me anymore either.
I havent followed it in awhile.

[bennie]

Im with ya Bennie.
The amateur scene doesnt really interest me anymore either.
I havent followed it in awhile.

I swear, Pug, the winner loses and the loser wins under the computer scoring system. How can a computer 'score' a bloody fight anyway.

[Expug]

Im with ya Bennie.
The amateur scene doesnt really interest me anymore either.
I havent followed it in awhile.

I swear, Pug, the winner loses and the loser wins under the computer scoring system. How can a computer 'score' a bloody fight anyway.

I never understood the need for computers , compubox stats etc etc.
The judges and referees calls are part of the sport of boxing.
If there is a corrupt official , replace him. Dont put in more gadgets.

[kikibalt]

Im with ya Bennie.
The amateur scene doesnt really interest me anymore either.
I havent followed it in awhile.

I'm with you guys also, I don't watch amateur boxing myself.

[bennie]

Colin Jones vs Donald Curry

Jones stopped by the doctor (just out of shot) before his fight with Don Curry had seemingly barely started in England in January 1985 (fourth round). The Welsh banger picked up a shocking cut on the bridge of the nose, an old injury that reopened. There was a packed house - a huge house - and it nearly all went off but for MC Mike Shinfield who pleaded for calm, although a few beer cans were hurled into the ring. Oh man, Curry looked so quick and sharp in the short time it lasted! It was like Leonard-Green all over again, minus the chilling knockout.
This was F rank Warren's first world title promotion.

Bennie, I felt for Colin Jones in this fight. His tears were not only for the fact the fight was stopped but for the fact that he knew this was his last shot at the title and ultimately his final fight also. After blowing two close ones to Milt McCrory (Man, I leapt from my chair when he hurt McCrory in the 1st fight), a man he could stand with, he ends up with a much more daunting task in Curry. The minute the Doc said it was over, Jones fell apart emotionally as indeed, it was over.

Scartissue

Jones took a lot out of himself in those fights with McCrory. I thought he was robbed both times (the first fight was a draw, of course), but I'm biased. He would definitely have licked McCrory over here but Jones went to the States for the dosh and picked up two gigantic purses instead of the title. That's boxing. Incidentally, Manny Steward gets a bad press these days but he did something in the first McCrory fight which showed his class, in my opinion. At the end of the 11th round, one round to go, Jones now dominating his man, he walked over to shock-haired King (to hide the horns) and had a few words. King left his seat and walked over to the Kronk corner, outside the ropes, obviously, and berated McCrory for a good 30 seconds. He really let McCrory have it. McCrory came out and had a pretty good last round to salvage that draw.

[bennie]

Im with ya Bennie.
The amateur scene doesnt really interest me anymore either.
I havent followed it in awhile.

I'm with you guys also, I don't watch amateur boxing myself.

You know, we have a guy over here called Audley Harrison. He won an Olympic gold medal at super-heavyweight in 2000 and he can't fight - he simply can't fight. What Harrison did was 'master' the computer scoring system of single shots, no body punching and plenty of movement. He would build up a lead and then just run for his life. Anyway, early in the 2000 Games, this Russian was kicking his arse when the referee suddenly steps in and stops the fight in Harrison's favour. It was a mind-boggling stoppage, but nobody cared enough to raise a stink.

[Expug]

Wow, I didnt know that it had gotten that bad Bennie.
It sounds like it is getting a little like Tae Kwon Do scoring.
The scoring in that sport is criticised similarily.
Although I dont follow that either. I have just heard .

[bennie]

It's that bad, Pug. In fact, Harrison STILL fights for the computer as a pro, building up a lead and then switching off. The guy is brainwashed.

[Expug]

It's that bad, Pug. In fact, Harrison STILL fights for the computer as a pro, building up a lead and then switching off. The guy is brainwashed.

Its unfortunate too, as it sounds like that may be a problem for which there isnt a remedy.
It has to be fixed from within.Hes had some success without extending himself and that becomes very habit forming in all walks of life.
Give me the guy who works his ass off and gives it 110 percent any day over the go through the motions guy.

[dagosd2000]

Buenos Dias Todos
I´m here in Jiquilpan. Tomorrow I´ll go to the Cultural Center and present Gato´s painting to the Director. I´ll be sure to take pictures. I´ll send them to Frank when I get back.

Frank
I had pan dulce this morning with hot chocolate. Then my brother in law came over with hot sweet tamales. He sells them in the plaza. After breakfast I drove down to the plaza to use the computer. I turned on the radio. It was ¨The Jose Alfredo Jimenez¨Hour.¨The first song was Ël Hijo Del Pueblo. (The Son Of The Town). The church bell is starting that slow gong. The little motorized train with all the kids sitting in the back has just passed by in the plaza. They´re dancing the ¨Calaveras¨in the street in their white costumes. The open markets are crowded with people. The Mariachis,yes ,I hear them. They´re playing somewhere. I´m going to find out were the music is coming from. Yes,I see a crowd, They´re there of course. I´m going now. I´ll be with you as always. Frank,I feel like El Hijo Del Pueblo.

[kikibalt]

Buenos Dias Todos
I´m here in Jiquilpan. Tomorrow I´ll go to the Cultural Center and present Gato´s painting to the Director. I´ll be sure to take pictures. I´ll send them to Frank when I get back.

Frank
I had pan dulce this morning with hot chocolate. Then my brother in law came over with hot sweet tamales. He sells them in the plaza. After breakfast I drove down to the plaza to use the computer. I turned on the radio. It was ¨The Jose Alfredo Jimenez¨Hour.¨The first song was Ël Hijo Del Pueblo. (The Son Of The Town). The church bell is starting that slow gong. The little motorized train with all the kids sitting in the back has just passed by in the plaza. They´re dancing the ¨Calaveras¨in the street in their white costumes. The open markets are crowded with people. The Mariachis,yes ,I hear them. They´re playing somewhere. I´m going to find out were the music is coming from. Yes,I see a crowd, They´re there of course. I´m going now. I´ll be with you as always. Frank,I feel like El Hijo Del Pueblo.

Now, I have to go out and buy pan dulce.... :x

[kikibalt]

[Randyman]

Buenos Dias Todos
I´m here in Jiquilpan. Tomorrow I´ll go to the Cultural Center and present Gato´s painting to the Director. I´ll be sure to take pictures. I´ll send them to Frank when I get back.

Frank
I had pan dulce this morning with hot chocolate. Then my brother in law came over with hot sweet tamales. He sells them in the plaza. After breakfast I drove down to the plaza to use the computer. I turned on the radio. It was ¨The Jose Alfredo Jimenez¨Hour.¨The first song was Ël Hijo Del Pueblo. (The Son Of The Town). The church bell is starting that slow gong. The little motorized train with all the kids sitting in the back has just passed by in the plaza. They´re dancing the ¨Calaveras¨in the street in their white costumes. The open markets are crowded with people. The Mariachis,yes ,I hear them. They´re playing somewhere. I´m going to find out were the music is coming from. Yes,I see a crowd, They´re there of course. I´m going now. I´ll be with you as always. Frank,I feel like El Hijo Del Pueblo.

Now, I have to go out and buy pan dulce.... :x

That makes two of us Frank!

[Randyman]

Charley Burley: The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion by Allen S. Rosenfeld

This book is not so easily defined. It is a biography but it is so much more than that. It is more akin to a documentary. It covers a period of time in boxing that is almost past the memory of fans of the Sweet Science. To some degree, It is also a primer on race relations in America, in a time when racial prejudice was widely accepted as the norm, both in sports and society as a whole. This book could also be used as a textbook for a course on boxing history at any level. It not only covers the middleweight division but the welterweights and light heavyweight divisions as well, albeit to a lesser degree.

Charley Burley, The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion, is author Allen S. Rosenfeld’s opus. That his blood, sweat and tears went into this book is obvious from the onset. What sets this book apart from most books is his inclusion of historic articles from the various sports writers and newspapers across the country, as opposed to an occasional quote. No stone was left unturned in the telling of Charley Burley’s story.

The following paragraph’s from page 173 of the book says a lot about Burley’s character, especially considering the times in which he lived and fought.

With all the action swirling around Pittsburgh, Burley got involved. He signed to take a turn with tough Kenny LaSalle. The Pittsburgh Press acknowledged Charley had been underrated. But it warned that if LaSalle hit Burley as often as he had Zivic he might kayo Burley. And Burley made one of his rare pronouncements:

“I beat Zivic twice-and even if he should beat Angott, I should be the one in there with Armstrong. And if Zivic is at ringside tonight, I’ll show him how to knock out the fellow who beat him here two weeks ago but failed to get the decision”. Quite a pronouncement!

The book does not sugar coat Burley’s career and gives us an honest snapshot at what some sports writers thought of him as shown by these two opposing views written by Regis M. Walsh, sports writer for The Pittsburgh Press: Following Burley’s win over the Cocoa Kid, Welsh wrote: “Move over - John Henry Lewis - move over and make room for another negro “champion” who calls the Hill District his home. Not a bona-fide, genuine titleholder like you are, but a vigorous, willing lad, today the possessor of a rather synthetic crown labeled “Colored Welterweight Champion”

A year later after his fight with Jimmy Leto, Welsh writes: “Burley’s retrogression in form is more or less pitiable. His win over Leto in ten boo-producing rounds was his third successive bad performance. He beat Fritzie Zivic in one of them, lost to Leto earlier in another-and last night’s was no better. The crowd was not bashful in venting venom in this one. Both leto and burley, 149, had better stay away from Henry Armstrong or who ever is welter champion” Pretty strong words.

In a career that spanned from 1936 to 1950, Burley’s career is marked as much by those he did not fight as much as it was by those he did. He beat Archie Moore but lost to Ezzard Charles twice. He had a fierce rivalry with Frtitzie Zivic that is well covered in the book. He never fought Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta , and most notably Sugar Ray Robinson. With 83 wins and 50 knockouts, 12 losses and 2 draws, Burley’s record is not perfect but it is a damned good one.

There is a section in the book entitled: Remembering a Friend by Frank E. Bolden. Bolden says this about Robinson and Burley: "Some of the local and national sportswriters said that Burley was afraid to fight Robinson. This is not true. In fact just the opposite is the case. When I was working in Detroit in 1946, Sugar Ray was there to fight Cecil Hudson. One evening at dinner Sugar Ray in answer to my question said he would never fight Charley because "I have seen him fight and I don't think I can beat him at this time". Ultimately, you will have to draw your own conclusions.

There are a few historic photos scattered throughout the book, and they are appreciated. Some are not as clear as I might have liked but it takes nothing away from the book.

I recommend Charley Burley: The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion to anyone that loves boxing, it’s history and it’s rich collection of characters, and to any one that enjoys a good read. Rosenfeld’s heartfelt book brings them back into our consciousness.

[Randyman]

Frank, could you post a photo of Rosenfeld's book for me?

Randy

[kikibalt]

Frank, could you post a photo of Rosenfeld's book for me?

Randy

Here it is, Randy...

[Randyman]

Frank, could you post a photo of Rosenfeld's book for me?

Randy

Here it is, Randy...

Thanks Frank, by the way your test came up on the blog.
Randy

[kikibalt]

Frank, could you post a photo of Rosenfeld's book for me?

Randy

Here it is, Randy...

Thanks Frank, by the way your test came up on the blog.
Randy

Yeah, I seen it, delete it if you want.

[Rick Farris]

Photograph by the Los Angeles Times
This is Louis sparring with Paul Williams at the Main Street Gym in a photo published April 16, 1939, shortly before Louis' bout with Jack Roper on April 17, 1939, at Wrigley Field. Roper lasted 2 minutes, 20 seconds with Louis.

Frank . . . This photo was taken more than a dozen years before I was born, and I realize at that time the Main St. Gym was was located across the street from the one we knew, at 318 1/2 S. Main. However, I learned a lot about Louis training for the Roper fight from both Duke Holloway and my grandfather. In 1939, Louis' great trainer, Jack Blackburn was dead. Working the corner and in the gym for the great Brown Bomber (at least for this bout) was Arthur "Duke" Holloway, a real Main Street Gym boxing legend. Jack Roper actually worked for my grandfather at Warner Bros. and he was described to me as a giant of a man, huge hands, hard worker. I have photos of me with Duke taken in 1965, along with Henry Armstrong who trained a young fighter named Gary Carr in L.A. at the time. I'll get them to you Frank and maybe you will post them. In one, I'm with Johnny & Julio Flores, and Duke and the great Armstrong. I was about 12 at the time. I'd arrive at the gym early on purpose, just to sit down on the bleachers where Duke would be. He'd tell stories of the great Joe Louis, the stories I couldn't get out of a boxing magazine or history book, the real stories were always so much more interesting. By the way, great photo!

-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

Roberto was an amazing fighter.
Truly great.Ive always felt that his defensive skills were one of the main attributes to his greatness as a fighter.
Alot of folks thought he was just an offensive beast.
Not so. The guy could slip , roll, and do all the old school stuff.
Its funny , I just looked at his fight with Lanas on his record here at Boxrec.
Judge Bill Lerch gave the fight to Lanas.
I just met Bill Lerch a year or so ago, even though he judged one or two of my fights, but I wish I would have asked him about his recollection of the Duran - Lanas fight.

Duran was percieved by many as a brawler, and when he needed to he could brawl, but that was just a part of his huge arsenal. Duran was a great defensive fighter. Leonard had a hard time landing in their first fight. Duran could slip punches with just the slightest movement. He is also underrated as a counter puncher. Maybe someday I'll be lucky enough to shake his hand.

Randy . . . You are so right about the great Duran. You know, he was inducted into the WBHOF in 2006, and it was nearly impossible to get close to Duran, he had a charisma like a Tyson, or Ali. It has been my suggestion that we at the Hall put money aside to bring such greats to our annual banquet EVERY year. not just the year of their induction. Sure, many always show up, the Fullmer's (when he's healthy, etc.). But many cannot afford to come, like Duran. Send them a ticket, take care of their reasonable living expenses and lodging for a few days, and the boxing world benefits. We'll get him there again, however, this year? Who knows?

-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

Hey Bobin . . . I look forward to your sharing some of your pics. That was a great story and your memories of things up in San Fran during our era are of great interest to me. Especially the gym, was it Newman-Herman Gym? I was there once, with Mel Epstein while up north to visit a former boxer he had who lived in Burlingame. Also, my friend Ray Lunney III will likely join in on our thread in due course. I heard a lot of great first hand Bobo Olsen stories up there, as well as Charley Shipes, etc. A lot of great Foreman-Dick Saddler stories, as well. By the way, did you ever see or here about Foreman's sparring session with Sonny Liston???? Just curious.

-Rick

Rick,
I really need to get those pictures out and scan them, I was really into photography at the time and have a lot of good pictures of Foreman training for Ali. That gym I referanced was indeed Newman & Herman's gym, it was owned and operated by Billiy Newman & Joe Herman, I beleive Billy Newman managed Bobo Olson for a while among many others and Joe Herman was Henry Clark's manager among many others. Newman's was absolutly my favorite place in the world and I miss it to this day. Walking down the long hall from the street you could here guys banging away on the heavy bags and slapping the double end and my heart raced with every step closer just waiting to see who might be there that day. I orginally started there at 12 years old but moved over to the PAL gym who had a wonderful trainer named Earl Gonsolin and guys my age and skill level at the time. I went back to Newmen's & Herman's on the weekends becasue the PAL gym was closed and it was the highlight of my week. My father would take my younger brother and I there and point out the retired guys as well as the active guys. I would take pictures and get autographs and haunt the place looking for old posters and stuff to add to my collection, Billy Newman would save stuff for me when I came in on the weekends, some I still have some I donated to a boxing museum a while ago. I will share what I do have soon.
The PAL had a nice little gym in the old National Guard Armory down on 14th & Mission St. Henry Clark eventually migrated down there as well as Ray Lunny III where I sparred many rounds with him as a 16 & 17 year old; I still have some 8mm film of us boxing there as well as some pictures of Ray II, Ray III and me goofing off. The Lunny's were gentlemen of the highest caliber. I now live about 30 miles south of S.F. where Ray III was raised and would often see Ray II in around town and he would tease me about being out of my weight division. Ray III is with the San Mateo County Sheriff's Department now. I sat with Ray at a Nor-Cal Vet. Boxer dinner a while back he looks to be in fighting shape except his jet black hair has turned white. Ray II died a couple years back I was very sad when I heard the news partly for me but mostly because I knew how close him and Ray III were. I hope Ray gets involved in this great forum I would love to hear some of his imput.
I don't know about the Liston-Foreman sparring session but would have loved to have been there; did that take place at Newman's? What do you know about it?
Bobbin & Weavin in
Nor-Cal[/quote]

Hey Rick,
I reposted this from last week because I wanted to hear what you knew about Foreman & Liston sparring and am interested what your connection with Ray Lunny III is. I also want to compliment all of your guys, Rick, Frank, Dagos, Randy, etc., etc., on this 250 pages of boxing history not just for So-Cal interest but any true boxing fan should take the opportunity to read this blog. I am jealous only that I was geographically in the wrong place otherwise I would have hopefully crossed paths with some of you before I signed up for this advanced class in the history of boxing.
Thanks,
Bobbin & Weavin
in Nor-Cal[/quote]

Hey Bobbin . . . The only info I have on the Liston-Foreman sparring session(s) came second hand, and I really don't remember what was said. I really enjoy your Northern Cal info and hope you'll continue to share it. As far as Ray Lunney III is concerned, I only just recently came in contact with him thru a mutual friend of ours that worked for me a couple years ago at CBS. My friend had made a short movie on Ray's boxing career in the early 70's as part of a college film class. We began to talk, he put us in contact with each other and we kind of hit it off. A few years back, Ray Jr. (his father) was inducted int the WBHOF. There is an amazing amount of California boxing history to be learned from Ray III, a very sharp guy who grew up with a father and grandfather who had been a part of that history. He knows it like very few and can take us on a trip back in time to boxing in Northen Cal (as well as the world). I gotta call Ray, who works today for the Dept. of Corrections, and touch bases with him. He needs the kinda of dialouge and exchanges we share on this board. He would be such a plus to an already great thread!

-Rick

[Rick Farris]

Im with ya Bennie.
The amateur scene doesnt really interest me anymore either.
I havent followed it in awhile.

I'm with you guys also, I don't watch amateur boxing myself.

I don't either. The International rules have turned amateur boxing into a game of senseless tag. They do not acknowledge the reality of "fighting" in boxing. I recall in the 80's, I accompanied Greg & Joe Goossen to an amateur card up in Oxnard. They were bringing Gabe & Rafael Ruelas. Greg was hung over and when we all got to the arena, Greg asked one of the officials in their clean white uniform, "Hey, where are the fighter's dressing rooms?" The official looked offended and corrected Goossen, "the BOXER's dressing room is over there. We don't have "fighters" here." Greg just laughed, "Well, I have to two "fighters" here, and if their opponents aren't "fighters", they're going to be in BIG trouble". Sure enough, Gabe & Rafa both flattened their 'boxer' opponents. Guess some people don't realize that boxing is about fighting, I rememeber two young men who got an education that day.

-Rick

[kikibalt]

Rick,

We missed each other on the phone, the reason I call was to tell you
that I took my wife for a drive, she is going nuts just staying at home
and she is driving me nuts... :x ..,anyway we took a drive to our old
stomping grounds and I shot these photos of the Eastside Boys & Girls Club,
remember when you fought there?

It looks kind of run down, don't it?

[Bobbin & Weavin]

Hey Bobbin . . . The only info I have on the Liston-Foreman sparring session(s) came second hand, and I really don't remember what was said. I really enjoy your Northern Cal info and hope you'll continue to share it. As far as Ray Lunney III is concerned, I only just recently came in contact with him thru a mutual friend of ours that worked for me a couple years ago at CBS. My friend had made a short movie on Ray's boxing career in the early 70's as part of a college film class. We began to talk, he put us in contact with each other and we kind of hit it off. A few years back, Ray Jr. (his father) was inducted int the WBHOF. There is an amazing amount of California boxing history to be learned from Ray III, a very sharp guy who grew up with a father and grandfather who had been a part of that history. He knows it like very few and can take us on a trip back in time to boxing in Northen Cal (as well as the world). I gotta call Ray, who works today for the Dept. of Corrections, and touch bases with him. He needs the kinda of dialouge and exchanges we share on this board. He would be such a plus to an already great thread!

-Rick[/quote]

Now you really have me curious about the Foreman-Liston sparring session; but in due time someone will come around who can enlighten us.
I agree one hundred percent about getting Ray to particapate in this thread, his family has boxing in their DNA and from his experieces and what he heard from his father and others around him would be a great addition. I was looking through Ray Jr. record on BoxRec and see that he fought all of his early fights in So-Cal and overall more than two thirds of all of his fights down there. I have a nice picture of Ray Jr. in his fighting days that he signed and gave me And a fair share of pictures of Ray III's fight with Ben Villaflor the reigning super featherweight champion who Ray was giving a pretty good licking to when the fight was stopped and called a TD because Villaflor had suffer a bad cut from an accidental head butt, it was call a TD because Lunny was well ahead on the score cards.
Bobbin & Weavin

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Ali's mouth and nose were still bleeding when they helped him down the ring steps after his fight with Jimmy Young.

I was standing right there.

Here is the youtube of the Ali-Young finale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5NSX5nqqNo

Can you please point out the cuts on Ali's mouth and nose and tell us which of the gentlemen was you?

Thank you.