Ali-Frazier II Revisited

[evndrbsn]

I finally watched this fight after having it in my collection for a couple years and all I can say is wow. I heard this fight was a dull affair yet it was a fantastic fight. Very close, furious fight, this is how I had it:

Round 1: Vintage Ali. Dancing around the ring, landing quick flurries of shots with Frazier doing nothing but boring in. Ali clinches Frazier when he gets close. Clear round for Ali. 1-0 Ali
Round 2: Much of the same, with Ali scoring with beautiful combinations and staggering Frazier at the end of the round which was stopped prematurely by referee Tony Perez. Another round for Ali. 2-0 Ali
Round 3: Frazier starting to come on and landing a few good left hooks, but Ali still has the volume to take the round. 3-0 Ali.
Round 4: Frazier coming forward still but Ali lands the better shots. Ali's round. 4-0 Ali.
Round 5: The turning point of the fight. After wasting the first four rounds, Frazier bulldozes his way through Ali's tiring guard and lands some tremendous left hooks. Ali can't seem to get away from it and seems to be fading. Frazier's round, 4-1 Ali.
Round 6: Smokin' Joe continues to bore his way inside, landing flush left hooks that plagued Ali throughout the trilogy. Ali still appears winded and Joe takes perfect advantage of it. Frazier's round. 4-2 Ali.
Round 7: Joe's best round of the fight. Ali can't land on Frazier, with Joe ducking Ali's shots with great skill and landing with powerful rising left hooks. Ali trying but he is not able to keep Frazier at distance. Frazier's third round in a row. 4-3 Ali.
Round 8: Frazier repeats most of what made him successful in the 7th, avoiding Ali's counter shots and coming back with his own. Ali just can't get away from that left hook! Frazier's round again. Now tied at 4-4.
Round 9: Ali has his second wind. Frazier comes out fast but Ali is back on his toes. Ali landing with enough steam on his punches and enough volume to squeak the round in his favor. 5-4 Ali.
Round 10: Frazier goes back to his bullying style and works Ali to the ropes with great effect. Ali trying to land flurries but Joe is too elusive (imagine that) and the left hooks keep him ahead. A rare jolting right hand stuns Ali to end the round and secures the stanza for Frazier. 5-5 dead even.
Round 11: Both know how important the final two rounds are. Great action; Frazier with his left hooks, Ali with his dazzling combinations. Ali got the better of the two and takes the round. 6-5 Ali.
Round 12: Arguably the best round of the fight. Both come out looking for a knockout and trade lethal punches that would have dropped lesser men. Frazier digs great shots to the body and head but again it is Ali's willingness to trade on the inside and and at times also box effectively from a distance that clinches a fantastic round in his favor. 7-5 Ali.

So unofficially I had it 7-5 for Ali, while the official judges scored the bout 6-5-1, 7-4-1, 8-4 for Ali.

It's a true shame this was not scheduled for 15 rounds, I think it would have been viewed as another classic, especially if it was for a title. Too bad the NABF title had 12 round fights at the time.

I'm curious to heard what other people thought of this fight and how they scored it. Great fight, not the lackluster performance by both fighters I had heard about. A fitting bout in the trilogy.

[My2Sense]

It's funny, I happened to be going through my fight collection myself last night, came across this fight, and ended up watching it again. I only intended to watch a few rounds but eventually decided to stay and watch it all the way through, as I haven't watched it in a while.

For starters, I've always questioned the decision. Ali was generally the busier of the two, but he was often throwing quick, semi-solid flurries while on his toes and not really sitting down on his punches. Frazier picked off or slipped many of his punches. Frazier wasn't exactly highly accurate himself, but he was the aggressor throughout and scored the heavier punches. I've always thought Frazier should've got at least draw, if not a close win. IMO, the 7-4-1 and 8-4 scores for Ali were not an accurate reflection of the fight at all.

Ali fought a bit smarter than he had in the first fight, using more side-to-side movement (as opposed to backing straight up) and punching from upward angles much more (as opposed to over the top, which Frazier could duck under). Still, I think the biggest difference between the first and second fights was Frazier, who lacked the fire and all-out intensity of the first fight. He looked soft and blubbery around the middle (even though he weighed only a few pounds more than the first fight, I believe), and he was generally throwing one punch at a time rather than the endless waves of combinations that typified his performance in the first fight. In short, he had become soft and lazy, sort of like a David Tua. He simply was not the same fighter. I've always felt that if Frazier could've somehow kept the form he had in the first Ali fight, he would always beat a post-layoff Ali. Of course, the best possible matchup of all would've been a peak Frazier vs. a peak (pre-layoff) Ali, which would've been an all-time classic for sure, and probably a peak Ali's toughest possible style matchup.

On another note, I don't believe the second Ali-Frazier fight was a great fight, just an average one really. IMO, it is a definite drop off from the first and third fights, sort of like the second Barrera-Morales fight. By the time of the third fight, Ali's leg movement was almost completely gone, which forced him to stand a slug with Frazier and made for a much more interesting and exciting fight. Ironically I suppose, the fight in which Ali had the least left is the only one I felt he decisively beat Frazier.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

After the layoff Ali had to totally reinvent himself...I watched The Thrilla In Manilla again on Saturday and I was amazed at how he spent the majority of the fight flat footed...It's a testimonial to the man that his greatest accomplishments came after his prime...His career arc reminds me of Holyfield but Ali's prime and post prime were better...

[Robinson]

I had this fight scored for Ali, I can not remember my exact scores however.

I would have loved to have seen what would have happened had it gone to
15 rounds.

Ali would have developed a style similar to what he did around that time
regardless of the lay off. Youth lasts for so long, and one changes things
with age and experience.

Sure Ali was not as fast of foot, or did not dance as well as he did in the
1960s, his older version had a saavy and ability about him that really
gave him exceptional qualities. I think it was his ability to recover from
hard flush shots and his reactive instincts that gave him a degree of
complacency in preparation.

Frazier in this fight was always looking to load up on that big shot, his
body work was never as busy or as effective as what he had been. Ali
while throwing more lighter shots was still the busier and more active
man.

I wonder what would have happened had Frazier been a little more active
and got the nod, that many here and about think he deserves...?

[dempseyfire]

It's funny, I happened to be going through my fight collection myself last night, came across this fight, and ended up watching it again. I only intended to watch a few rounds but eventually decided to stay and watch it all the way through, as I haven't watched it in a while.

For starters, I've always questioned the decision. Ali was generally the busier of the two, but he was often throwing quick, semi-solid flurries while on his toes and not really sitting down on his punches. Frazier picked off or slipped many of his punches. Frazier wasn't exactly highly accurate himself, but he was the aggressor throughout and scored the heavier punches. I've always thought Frazier should've got at least draw, if not a close win. IMO, the 7-4-1 and 8-4 scores for Ali were not an accurate reflection of the fight at all.

Ali fought a bit smarter than he had in the first fight, using more side-to-side movement (as opposed to backing straight up) and punching from upward angles much more (as opposed to over the top, which Frazier could duck under). Still, I think the biggest difference between the first and second fights was Frazier, who lacked the fire and all-out intensity of the first fight. He looked soft and blubbery around the middle (even though he weighed only a few pounds more than the first fight, I believe), and he was generally throwing one punch at a time rather than the endless waves of combinations that typified his performance in the first fight. In short, he had become soft and lazy, sort of like a David Tua. He simply was not the same fighter. I've always felt that if Frazier could've somehow kept the form he had in the first Ali fight, he would always beat a post-layoff Ali. Of course, the best possible matchup of all would've been a peak Frazier vs. a peak (pre-layoff) Ali, which would've been an all-time classic for sure, and probably a peak Ali's toughest possible style matchup.

On another note, I don't believe the second Ali-Frazier fight was a great fight, just an average one really. IMO, it is a definite drop off from the first and third fights, sort of like the second Barrera-Morales fight. By the time of the third fight, Ali's leg movement was almost completely gone, which forced him to stand a slug with Frazier and made for a much more interesting and exciting fight. Ironically I suppose, the fight in which Ali had the least left is the only one I felt he decisively beat Frazier.

I pretty much agree with your entire post. Very average fight in my opinion. Neither fighter was very effective, Frazier didn't show near the movement (he was coming much more straight in instead of bobbing and weaving) nor the combination punching he showed in Fight I, and Ali marred his performance by excessive holding and not being active enough himself. I wouldn't even put this in my top 20 Heavyweight fights of the 1970s.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Ali won the trilogy...That being said, if Frazier wins the second fight, he fights Foreman again and loses...

Ali probably never fights Foreman...Foreman never loses to Jimmy Young...Foreman retires undefeated, rendering Rocky Marciano's undefeated career much less meaningful...

And sans the Ali loss I don't see Larry Holmes coming on to the scene to beat Foreman...Foreman's invincible status would still be very much intact and that would have an impact on how Larry fought him...

If you watch the Norton fight , Foreman was improving ...He had shortened his punches which made his delivery quicker and it wasn't as enervating... He was a psychological wreck after the Ali fight his wins against Frazier and Lyle nonwithstanding...

However, if he doesn't lose to Ali he doesn't lose to Young, and doesn't come back at thirty eight years old...

Foreman would be the GOAT....But he wouldn't be the beloved, uber rich figure he is now...

[Robinson]

Lets say Frazier beats Ali 1974.

Ali fights Norton and wins.
Frazier beats Ellis, Quarry.

1975-1976.
Frazier fights Foreman again and most
likely losses.

Foreman champion...
Ali fights Shavers, Lyle or Young to win
a shot at big George.

Ali faces Foreman and most likely 'wins'
a decision this time.

Foreman still losses to Young. Should he
face Holmes around 77-78 he loses.

I just do not see Frazier avoiding Foreman
he does not strike me as some one to
'duck' an opponent. Heck he took him on
agains back in '76 when he really did not need
to.

[p4p1]

i do not think frazier would avoid foreman either but he couldnt beat foreman

[Robinson]

Not then.

I think if they faced one another in 1969-1970.

[Robinson]

...then it would be different.

[p4p1]

...then it would be different.

yes well there would be an exellent chance of that didnt liston give it to foreman at onetime in a sparring session around that time

[BoxBuzz]

For us "Ali Shills" This is the fight when the referee came to Poor Joe's defense so the crowd would not go home dissapointed regarding a short night of pugilistic entertainment. Soon as Ali had Joe in trouble, the Ref could see the audience would be plenty mad if this fight turned out to be an early 2nd round KO. So he gets in the middle of things to stop the madness long enough to give Joe a chance to regain his bearings.

Good fight though. Ali clearly won. And Joe was no slouch by any means. But he did get a wee bit of help so's he could make a night of it for the crowd.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

For us "Ali Shills" This is the fight when the referee came to Poor Joe's defense so the crowd would not go home dissapointed regarding a short night of pugilistic entertainment. Soon as Ali had Joe in trouble, the Ref could see the audience would be plenty mad if this fight turned out to be an early 2nd round KO. So he gets in the middle of things to stop the madness long enough to give Joe a chance to regain his bearings.

Good fight though. Ali clearly won. And Joe was no slouch by any means. But he did get a wee bit of help so's he could make a night of it for the crowd.

You notice how Ali or his fans never begrudge Joe his first victory...Even in his biopic, Ali, the loss is treated as a pivotal moment in his career as it was...

Then why do posters on a bulletin board try to take away what he earned in the ring through strength, guile, and good old fashioned will in the second and third fights?

The answer tells you everything you need to know about Ali, those who like and defend him, and those who don't...

[My2Sense]

Ali won the trilogy...That being said, if Frazier wins the second fight, he fights Foreman again and loses...

Ali probably never fights Foreman...

I don't know about that. Unless Ali retired after the 2nd Frazier fight, there's a good chance Foreman would've given him a shot anyway after Frazier got his. Foreman and his people were pretty confident they could beat Ali (and would've been even moreso if he failed to beat Frazier a second time), and an Ali fight still would've meant big money somewhere. And besides, except for maybe Quarry, who else was out there for George to fight?

[dempseyfire]

For us "Ali Shills" This is the fight when the referee came to Poor Joe's defense so the crowd would not go home dissapointed regarding a short night of pugilistic entertainment. Soon as Ali had Joe in trouble, the Ref could see the audience would be plenty mad if this fight turned out to be an early 2nd round KO. So he gets in the middle of things to stop the madness long enough to give Joe a chance to regain his bearings.

Good fight though. Ali clearly won. And Joe was no slouch by any means. But he did get a wee bit of help so's he could make a night of it for the crowd.

BS. Frazier was slightly buzzed by he was by no means going to be stopped or put down. He was stunned worse in the Thrilla in the 2nd round and he came back even stronger.

The ref did a much worse job by letting Ali get away with so much holding. And this is the plain truth. Ali is 2nd on my all-time HW list, he was a fantastic fighter, he won the Doug Jones fight definitively, I'm fine with a narrow victory for him in the Norton rematch. and I respect his position regarding the draft and his personal decisions regarding religion.
But he held WAY too much in the Frazier rematch, it was John Ruiz level bad.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

If Joe was going to put his head and lay on Ali's chest Ali was going to use his superior size to tie him up...He could have done what Big George did with devastating effect and literally push him back when he got close...

I have Joe somewhere in my top ten heavyweights...Ali and Foreman just figured him out...Of course, he was much, much , much more competitive with Ali...If he fought Ali ten times Ali would beat him seven...If he fought Big George ten times Big George would beat him eleven...

[SteveO]

Dempseyfire wrote:
quote=He held WAY too much in the Frazier rematch, it was John Ruiz level bad.[/quote]

Perhaps that was the GOAT's cunning plan!

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Dempseyfire wrote:
quote=He held WAY too much in the Frazier rematch, it was John Ruiz level bad.

Perhaps that was the GOAT's cunning plan![/quote]

Of course it was, just like when Big George pushed him back whever he got too close in Kingston...His relatively small stature became determinative...That's why a Holyfield or a Lennox Lewis would have given him Hell if they were smart enough to use their size which they were...

Nobody or few people criticize Holyfield for wrestling (clinching) Tyson whenever he got too close...

[SteveO]

In order to win you gotta do what you gotta do

[My2Sense]

Nobody or few people criticize Holyfield for wrestling (clinching) Tyson whenever he got too close...

Because Tyson was as much or more responsible for the rough tactics in those fights as Holyfield was.

[BoxBuzz]

Dempsey....the problem with that second round is that we never got to find out. You may well be right, but it's just conjecture. WE KNOW what the ref did...it's clear and it was an error. And as for the holding....it's part of boxing....but Ref's making mistakes like that....I think that's a bit more unusual.

That's all I'm saying.

Anyway the fastest way to get a reaction around here is to postulate what might have been "if". And that second round will always be a mystery because we will simply never know because that Ref just plain pulled a bone headed move. Unless you think Frazier deserved a break just because Ali was hitting him to fast and too hard.

[Robinson]

I dont think Frazier was saved by the ref in that second round.
I have read alot about it, but I do not see what many say they
saw.

But thats just me.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Dempsey....the problem with that second round is that we never got to find out. You may well be right, but it's just conjecture. WE KNOW what the ref did...it's clear and it was an error. And as for the holding....it's part of boxing....but Ref's making mistakes like that....I think that's a bit more unusual.

That's all I'm saying.

Anyway the fastest way to get a reaction around here is to postulate what might have been "if". And that second round will always be a mystery because we will simply never know because that Ref just plain pulled a bone headed move. Unless you think Frazier deserved a break just because Ali was hitting him to fast and too hard.

I don't begrudge Joe his little second round respite or reprieve...It's time Joe and his fans don't begrudge Ali his unanimous decision and technical knock out in the second and third matches...In fact, Muhammad Ali, totally reinvented himself for the rubber match, something that Joe could never do, and that's why if he fought Big George one hundred times, Big George would beat him one hundred and one times...Muhammad Ali beat Joe Holyfield style,relying on hand speed, a lot of movement but not dancing, a great beard, and incredible heart...

And let's not forget Joe was the ripe old age of 31 for The Thrilla...

A small note on Perez...He's the genius ref who let Chuck Wepner rabbit punch Ali all night which is one of the most dangerous punches in boxing...

[Ambling Alp]

Of course we will never know for sure, but I think Frazier would have survived the round. He was hurt, but didn't seem totally out.

If the situation was reversed and Frazier had Ali in trouble and the referee heard an imaginary bell, this would get a lot more attention. As in every day, we would be hearing about this on the Forum. There would be no question in some people's minds that Ali was "gone" and got a "gift".

As for the decision, there was never really any controversy about this. Everyone but a delusional Frazier thought Ali won. Of course nowadays it's in vogue for some people to criticize almost every decision Ali ever won and say he got all the breaks which is of course nonsense. Many other great fighters had more controversial decisions that went their way and they are never discussed.

As for the quality of the fight itself, it was a good but not great fight. It suffers in comparison to the other two. For whatever reason, Frazier just wasn't quite as good as he normally was.

[p4p1]

If the situation was reversed and Frazier had Ali in trouble and the referee heard an imaginary bell, this would get a lot more attention. As in every day, we would be hearing about this on the Forum. There would be no question in some people's minds that Ali was "gone" and got a "gift".

.

spot on