Brodie vs Chi - Tactics.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Apr 2004, 14:24

Now, most of us saw the first enthralling encounter and cannot wait for the 2nd. Looking at the first fight, what would you say are the best tactics Michael should employ this time.

For me, Mikey has got to go out guns blazing from the off, Chi cannot fight from the back foot at all. When Michael was doing this he looked the much better opperator and was well on top of things. Unfortunately Michael ran out of gas and Chi's superior strength took over and, for me, won him the fight clearly (but close).

So (I here you ask) by going out guns blazing doesn't he run the risk of doing the same? Yes he does, however what are the other options for him - Chi is the much bigger man with a great heart and suprisingly faster hands. When Brodie went on the back foot he usually ended up taking a severe beating. Chi's a fast starter who also hurt Brodie in the first two rounds, when Brodie was feeling him out. I'm sure the shots he took in the opening rounds also affected Brodie later on in the contest.

Brodie must not let Chi get a foot hold, sure he might tire but he will also go a few rounds longer because he won't have suffered the damage he did early on in the last contest. It really is as intriguing this time as it was the last time, because both men had great dominating spells in the last fight - meaning both could win.

I was surprised with how well Chi could cope with Brodie when Mickey decided to box, Brodie has looked awesome as a boxer in his fights with the likes of Cabrera, but obviously (like Woods) at top world class he isn't quite fast enough to win contests fighting like that. I still believe that Woods may have beaten Johnson if he would have fought an aggressive fight (ala his performance with Ashley). We need to see Brodie the slugger of the middle rounds from the very start vs Chi next week.

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 06 Apr 2004, 14:39

Brodie has to work on the body as much as he can. That was the only crack I saw in Chi's armour.

I'm sure Brodie can keep on his chest for for twelve rounds. The knockdown must have took quite a lot of Brodie, and it definitely would have contributed to him running out of steam.

I fancy brodie this time around, unless he has suddenly gone old overnight.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Apr 2004, 06:53

Work the body from the very start, keep Chi pinned on the ropes as much as possible where his wild swings are ineffective, and pace yourself.

The problem Brodie has, is that as much as his body shots troubled Chi, he was wearing himself out throwing them, because Chi was such a tough tough bastard.

Michael unfortunately isn't a fantastic body puncher, and so he has to work hard to keep Chi on the back foot, someone with better punching technique to the body might be able to stop chi, because hitting him in the head seems like a fruitless exercise.

J · Post by J » 07 Apr 2004, 07:32

im surprised that everyone thinks Brodie should go to the trenches again with Chi. To take a different agnel I personalyl think Mike's best way is to start by using his better boxing skills to pick off Chi not get drawn into a war like last time. He is vastly underated as boxer in my view and coudl use his movement to frustrate the Korean for the opening few stanza's. Then having a plan b to fall back on if it isnt working...... just a fdifferent take and hey woultn be the first time Ive been wrong. i just dont think hif he stands toe to toe with Chi he has the overall strength and stamina to outperform the korean punching machine.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Apr 2004, 07:41

I disagree, I don't see Brodie as a particularly great boxer, whenever he went onto the back foot, he started getting hammered, he just couldn't stay away from Chi, whose punches though looping, were accurate and fast.

Brodie isn't slick enough to dance circles around chi for 12 rounds.

J · Post by J » 07 Apr 2004, 07:49

Well you could be right, I dont see him as slick enough either to keep Chi at bay for the whole fight Im just not sure bout the blasting tactics, be interesting to see what happens.
However I do remember being mightily impressed with the way he used his skills against Cabrerra(admittedly a different kettle of fish) and couldnt help wondering why we hadnt seen him "box" more often throughout his career.
Either way im looking forward to this one.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Apr 2004, 07:52

I don't think Brodie can win by simply going to the trenches, he needs to use the body attack when he gets the opportunity, do his damage, then back out of range until he can regroup, use his jab to keep Chi off, and then repeat the cycle. That way he can frustrate Chi, but when Chi gets within range, go back to the body and discourage him from letting his hands go.

J · Post by J » 07 Apr 2004, 07:55

yes sounds like a sound gameplan to me.
Hope he can pull it off, I like Mikeeee!!!, good honest pro who has had his share of bad luck and been messed around on more than one occasion.
I'll be rooting for him come fight night.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 07 Apr 2004, 09:26

I for 1 just wanna see them fight again it is like watching a smaller Gatti-Ward i dont care about the tactics i wanan see blood.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Apr 2004, 09:28

Some boxing fan you are mate, maybe you should watch cockfighting.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 07 Apr 2004, 13:57

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I disagree, I don't see Brodie as a particularly great boxer, whenever he went onto the back foot, he started getting hammered, he just couldn't stay away from Chi, whose punches though looping, were accurate and fast.

Brodie isn't slick enough to dance circles around chi for 12 rounds.

While I think Brodie has shown at a lower level he can box a fair bit, I do agree entirely with this opinion - Chi is too fast and big for Brodie to fight on the back foot. As I said Brodie started the first two rounds on the back foot and very nearly got KO'd. When Brodie forced Chi back, it was Chi who looked close to getting KO'd.

Body attacks, lots of punches - push the big man back, he can't fight on the back foot.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 08 Apr 2004, 06:21

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Some boxing fan you are mate, maybe you should watch cockfighting.

I am a boxing Fan i 100% love this sport, tactics Brodie should work on his defence he was getting battered whenever he started to go back! And they should both work the body alot more!

J · Post by J » 08 Apr 2004, 06:30

amateur just a word of advice mate, things Like I wanna see blood, dont go down very well. Sure everyone wants to see an action packed fight mate but that implies you want to see someone get seriously hurt bruv, hence the reaction mate.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 08 Apr 2004, 07:28

Yeah I suppose your right I just dont wanna see what could have been a great war like Casamyor-Coralles 2 turn into a shitty tactical fight like that 1 did.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Apr 2004, 07:31

Harrison is a naturally bigger man than Hamed (thought not at the moment of course), and probably physically stronger, but doesn't hit
anywhere near as hard, there's a big difference, you don't have to be
able to lift big weights to hit hard.

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 08 Apr 2004, 07:33

jamesmcdonnell wrote:you don't have to be able to lift big weights to hit hard.

Depends which thread you read.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 08 Apr 2004, 07:34

yeah your 100% right its all in the way you were made as to how hard you can naturally hit.

J · Post by J » 08 Apr 2004, 07:37

{amateur} wrote:yeah your 100% right its all in the way you were made as to how hard you can naturally hit.

not only.
Its about speed, timing, technique, training, accuracy, focus, kinetics and natural punch power.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 08 Apr 2004, 07:42

Ok but i have heard from a Biologist that the way the tendons are attached to the bone and basically your whole muscle and bone struture combined together determine wether or not you have a natural Hard hit.

J · Post by J » 08 Apr 2004, 07:49

undoubtedly natural ability has input into punching power the way you are built you are quite right to say so, but it isnt just that, you have to harness this and learn the techniques to put this to full effect.

For example a weightlifter may well not be able to punch as hard as trained boxer or martial artiist despite being naturally stronger.

thats my point its not just down to whether you born a puncher or not.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 08 Apr 2004, 07:51

Yeah I get what ya mean ah.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Apr 2004, 08:00

Punching is an incredibly complicated mechanical operation, there are many different ways to throw a hook, or skin a cat as they say.

The basic principle though is weight transference though, it's basically momentum and the accuracy of delivery which determine the effectiveness of a punch.

Bodybuilders lose a lot of their elasticity, which means they cannot extend as far on their punches. Look at that shot Lewis felled Rahman with, his right hand ended up past the level of his hip, his knees were bent, and his shoulders were dipped, the force of the punch rotated through the axis of his right hip in a sort of bowling motion, generating huge force.

Compare this to Vitali Klitchsko, who is just as physically strong, maybe stronger, but if you watch his punching technique, there is very little use of the body, mainly an arm puncher. This is why although his punches looked devastating against Lewis, they didn't really trouble him much.

I've also heard that in order to have a hard punch you need to have thick tendons which produce a tight 'lock' when a punch is delivered, I seem to recall though that they need to be elastic enough to allow for big movement.

There is also the timing of a punch, the ones which do the most damage utilise the opponents own momentum, for instance an uppercut delivered to an opponent as they duck, and then there is delivering shots when the opponent is unsighted, giving them no chance to ride the punch.

I mean look at someone like Thomas Hearns, or Diego Corrales, probably the closest thing to a hearns we have in this era, both skin and bone, very little muscle tissue in evidence (I'm talking about welterweight Hearns here), but they both punch way above their weight class. Both are long, lean, skinny and flexible, Ray Robinson was like this too.

Does anyone know of a book which explains the mechanics of the punch?

J · Post by J » 08 Apr 2004, 08:03

http://www.kungfulife.com/archives/010214.html

try this wont answer all of it as its from a martial arts perspective but some interesting stuff.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Apr 2004, 08:26

Seems to agree with my own home grown theories.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Apr 2004, 08:29

One trainer, I forget who now, said the guy with the biggest butt, was likely to be the bigger puncher, as in fact the msot important part of punching was footwork, and not what happens up top.

Without a stable platform, you simply cannot generate power, certainly not with conventional punching technique. It is true that a lot of punchers are very muscular from the waist down, Mike Tyson is the perfect archetype here, huge thigh muscles, I think I am right in saying he had the largest thigh measurements of any heavyweight champ.

His early punching technique as devise by Cus, utitlised that strength in a very unusual way, by getting him to fight off the balls of his feet and 'push' into his punches, delivering his uppercuts not with a flat footed stance, but rather by sort of leaping into the shots, similar to Patterson (a very underrated puncher) who used this technique, though a less subtle version when he was still being trained by Cus.

It seems there are many punching techniques in addition to the basic form.