Who Was The Best Fighter Rocky Marciano Beat?

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Who was the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime?

Ezzard Charles was 33

The Brown Bomber was 38

Jersey Joe was 39

The Old Mongoose was 39

Does that mean we are left with Roland LaStarza?

Yes, Rocky made the most of what he had, beat everybody that got in the ring with him, and for that he deserves applause but the fact his repuation was made on the backs of past it boxers should temper that applause...

[Sweet P]

Moore went on to fight for another 7-8 years after the fight with Marciano, He beat some tough guys after the fight to so he was far from finished when he lost.

[raylawpc]

Who was the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime?

Ezzard Charles was 33

The Brown Bomber was 38

Jersey Joe was 39

The Old Mongoose was 39

Does that mean we are left with Roland LaStarza?

Yes, Rocky made the most of what he had, beat everybody that got in the ring with him, and for that he deserves applause but the fact his repuation was made on the backs of past it boxers should temper that applause...

Why, who else would you have had him fight? He fought the best guys available.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Who was the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime?

Ezzard Charles was 33

The Brown Bomber was 38

Jersey Joe was 39

The Old Mongoose was 39

Does that mean we are left with Roland LaStarza?

Yes, Rocky made the most of what he had, beat everybody that got in the ring with him, and for that he deserves applause but the fact his repuation was made on the backs of past it boxers should temper that applause...

Why, who else would you have had him fight? He fought the best guys available.

It's not his fault that the best boxers of his era were past it...But it is the responsibilty of those who establish his place in history to acknowledge that fact, a fact that is conveniently ignored by many who evaluate the man...

As you can see in this thread somebody is suggesting a thirty nine year old boxer had many more great years ahead of him...It can be established to a biological certainty that a thirty nine year old boxer's hand-eye coordination, reflexes, and muscle to fat ratio is fundamentally different and inferior to that of when he was say twenty nine years old ...

[raylawpc]

In my mind it doesn't diminish it much because Marciano didn't duck anybody.

I'm curious how you rank Joe Louis under your criteria.

Personally, I'm content to say that Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali were all-time greats. I don't really care the order in which one ranks them.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

In my mind it doesn't diminish it much because Marciano didn't duck anybody.

I'm curious how you rank Joe Louis under your criteria.

Personally, I'm content to say that Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali were all-time greats. I don't really care the order in which one ranks them.

I think the gentlemen you named would have been successful in any era...I just think one needs to take into account that Rocky's greatest victories were against opponents who were imho, inarguably, past it...

[raylawpc]

In my mind it doesn't diminish it much because Marciano didn't duck anybody.

I'm curious how you rank Joe Louis under your criteria.

Personally, I'm content to say that Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali were all-time greats. I don't really care the order in which one ranks them.

I think the gentlemen you named would have been successful in any era...I just think one needs to take into account that Rocky's greatest victories were against opponents who were imho, inarguably, past it...

I am still curious how you rank Louis, whose earlier career was arguably built mostly on the backs of "has beens," and most of whose title defenses were against "never weres."

How do you rank Dempsey, who layed off three years and was accused by some of ducking Wills; or Johnson, who ducked the best black fighters of his era while champion?

[raylawpc]

In answer to the original question, I think the best fighter Rocky ever face was Archie Moore, with Ezzard Charles a very, very close second. (And I could be convinced with some ease to switch to Charles No. 1.) Walcott is a distant third.

However, I think Walcott gave Marciano his toughest title fight in their first meeting.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

In my mind it doesn't diminish it much because Marciano didn't duck anybody.

I'm curious how you rank Joe Louis under your criteria.

Personally, I'm content to say that Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali were all-time greats. I don't really care the order in which one ranks them.

I think the gentlemen you named would have been successful in any era...I just think one needs to take into account that Rocky's greatest victories were against opponents who were imho, inarguably, past it...

I am still curious how you rank Louis, whose earlier career was arguably built mostly on the backs of "has beens," and most of whose title defenses were against "never weres."

How do you rank Dempsey, who layed off three years and was accused by some of ducking Wills; or Johnson, who ducked the best black fighters of his era while champion?

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Evander Holyfield

10) Lennox Lewis

That being said I think every fighter on the list beats Rocky Marciano rather handily...

[raylawpc]

I think the gentlemen you named would have been successful in any era...I just think one needs to take into account that Rocky's greatest victories were against opponents who were imho, inarguably, past it...

I am still curious how you rank Louis, whose earlier career was arguably built mostly on the backs of "has beens," and most of whose title defenses were against "never weres."

How do you rank Dempsey, who layed off three years and was accused by some of ducking Wills; or Johnson, who ducked the best black fighters of his era while champion?

1) Muhammad Ali

2) Jack Johnson

3) Joe Louis

4) Rocky Marciano

5) Jack Dempsey

6) George Foreman

7) Larry Holmes

8 ) Joe Frazier

9) Evander Holyfield

10) Lennox Lewis

That being said I think every fighter on the list beats Rocky Marciano rather handily...

So you don't discount Jack Johnson for ducking the best black fighters of his era while champion? Or Louis for picking the "Bum of the Month" for most of his title defenses?

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I am rating them on their accomplishments as well as making inferences about how they would fare in other eras...Rocky was by far the smallest man on the list and that would have presented him with problems against much bigger fighters like Holyfield, Lewis, Foreman, Holmes, and Ali...It would also present him with problems against other big fighters of that era who were not champions...

I just do not read too much into his undefeated record, anymore than I read too much into Floyd Mayweather's or Joe Calzaghe's undefeated record...

As I said in my original post, fans of his make the inference that because Rocky beat every opponent of his era he would beat every opponent of every era...They then cite his victories over greats such as Charles, Walcott, Moore, and Louis to buttress that argument...It needs to be pointed out that argument rests on a faulty premise since those men were past it with some of them more past it than others...

[Ambling Alp]

I would say Walcott was the best fighter that Marciano beat. (In the first fight)

Louis was way past; his reflexes were shot. He could occasionally land a good shot, but couldn't follow up with it.

Charles was past it as well; though not completely shot. He had lost 5 times in the last three years.

Moore was never close to being a great heavyweight.

Walcott was sort of a freak of nature. He didn't decline nearly as quickly as most fighters. At the time that Marciano, he was past it but had the most left. He could still use some footspeed and box as well as fight. He was ahead going into the 13th round.

LaStarza was in his prime when he fought Marciano, so technically he is probably the answer to the original question. However, Walcott even at that stage was better than LaStarza ever was.

[BoxBuzz]

I would say Walcott was the best fighter that Marciano beat. (In the first fight)

Louis was way past; his reflexes were shot. He could occasionally land a good shot, but couldn't follow up with it.

Charles was past it as well; though not completely shot. He had lost 5 times in the last three years.

Moore was never close to being a great heavyweight.

Walcott was sort of a freak of nature. He didn't decline nearly as quickly as most fighters. At the time that Marciano, he was past it but had the most left. He could still use some footspeed and box as well as fight. He was ahead going into the 13th round.

LaStarza was in his prime when he fought Marciano, so technically he is probably the answer to the original question. However, Walcott even at that stage was better than LaStarza ever was.

I woudn't discount Moore in this equation. My guess is that Moore would have beaten Walcott around this same timeframe. Though I agree that Moore was never a great Heavyweight.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I would say Walcott was the best fighter that Marciano beat. (In the first fight)

Louis was way past; his reflexes were shot. He could occasionally land a good shot, but couldn't follow up with it.

Charles was past it as well; though not completely shot. He had lost 5 times in the last three years.

Moore was never close to being a great heavyweight.

Walcott was sort of a freak of nature. He didn't decline nearly as quickly as most fighters. At the time that Marciano, he was past it but had the most left. He could still use some footspeed and box as well as fight. He was ahead going into the 13th round.

LaStarza was in his prime when he fought Marciano, so technically he is probably the answer to the original question. However, Walcott even at that stage was better than LaStarza ever was.

I woudn't discount Moore in this equation. My guess is that Moore would have beaten Walcott around this same timeframe. Though I agree that Moore was never a great Heavyweight.

Are you saying that Rocky Marciano's most formidable and toughest opponent was a thirty nine year old man who was a light heavyweight for most of his career?

[raylawpc]

You changed your question. The original question wasn't "Who is most formidable and toughest opponent Rocky Marciano beat?" Nor it is "Who is the best heavyweight Rocky Marciano beat?" The question is "Who is the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat?" I agreed with Buzz that it was Archie. Had Marciano ever fought Willie Pep, I would have said Pep.

In going back just now and seeing that you qualified the question in your first text as ". . . the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime," I'd change my answer and say Louis since, prime to prime, I think Louis was a better overall fighter than Archie. But again, had Marciano ever fought Willie Pep, I might still say Pep, since the question is fighter, not heavyweight, and Willie was arguably a better fighter, prime to prime, than Louis.

Marciano said his toughest opponent was Walcott in their first fight. I'm happy to take his word for it.

[Ambling Alp]

I would say Walcott was the best fighter that Marciano beat. (In the first fight)

Louis was way past; his reflexes were shot. He could occasionally land a good shot, but couldn't follow up with it.

Charles was past it as well; though not completely shot. He had lost 5 times in the last three years.

Moore was never close to being a great heavyweight.

Walcott was sort of a freak of nature. He didn't decline nearly as quickly as most fighters. At the time that Marciano, he was past it but had the most left. He could still use some footspeed and box as well as fight. He was ahead going into the 13th round.

LaStarza was in his prime when he fought Marciano, so technically he is probably the answer to the original question. However, Walcott even at that stage was better than LaStarza ever was.

I woudn't discount Moore in this equation. My guess is that Moore would have beaten Walcott around this same timeframe. Though I agree that Moore was never a great Heavyweight.

Are you saying that Rocky Marciano's most formidable and toughest opponent was a thirty nine year old man who was a light heavyweight for most of his career?

Walcott wasn't a lightheavyweight for most of his career. He was a heavyweight for almost his entire career. Actually he was "only" 38 when he fought Marciano the first time. And I do think he was a much better heavyweight than Moore and would have beat Moore handily at that time.

TheOneISHere-Are you really asking " Who at the time of his fight vs Marciano fight, was the best heavyweight that he beat?"

If so, I'm going with Walcott in the first fight.

[raylawpc]

delete

[HomicideHenry]

Moore was never close to being a great heavyweight.

I happen to disagree with you on this. Though he only challenged for the HW title twice against Marciano and Patterson, Moore did beat a very good list of heavyweights, and also throw in that after his loss to The Rock he maintained his status as the best light heavyweight in the world for basically another 10 years.

What heavyweights did he defeat? The list is a Who's Who of heavyweight contenders, as well as pretenders:

Howard King, Pete Rademacher, Buddy Turman, Willi Besmanoff, Charley Norkus, Bert Whitehurst, Bob Albright, George Abinet, Giulio Rinaldi, Bobby Mitchell, Alain Cherville, Hans Kalbfell, James J. Parker, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, Jimmy Slade, Frankie Daniels, Bob Dunlap, Alejandro Lavorante.....throw in a few professional wrestlers in Professor Roy Shire and Sterling Davis, you have a pretty good mixed bag of heavyweights inbetween Moore's 175 pound title defenses, and some of those heavyweights Moore beat on numerous occassions, they weren't just one night affairs.


Anyways, as for who was the best opponent Marciano fought, its hard to say. Joe Louis wasn't the Louis of old, but he was still a top contender and was in line to fight the winner of Walcott-Charles, he just took the fight with Marciano to keep in shape as well as keep up with his debts. Walcott gave him possibly the greatest fight in heavyweight history [as far as championship fights are concerned], but The Rock always stated that Ezzard Charles was the one who gave him the most problems. LaStarza, for all intents and purposes, was the only "rival"
opponent Marciano had, and if there was doubts of who won the first time, there definately wasn't any in the return. Don Cockell? Poor Don was blasted right and left, and I still wonder as to how in the hell he still made it into the 9th round.

Moore, overall, is the best opponent Rocky faced...if only Marciano stayed around another year or so, and defended the title against a Valdes or Baker or Satterfield, Jackson or Patterson. Maybe history wouldnt been so critical of Marciano then.

[raylawpc]

The Rock always stated that Ezzard Charles was the one who gave him the most problems.

When did Rocky say that, Hank? I've found a quote where Rocky said Walcott gave him his toughest fight, but never a statement like that you report regarding Charles. I'm not saying he never said it, but I've never seen the quote.

[dempseyfire]

Louis was WAY past it, so the question is really who in their version that faced Rocky was better? Charles, Walcott, or Moore?


I'd say Walcott, even though Charles was the better fighter, Ezzard was more shopworn when he fought Marciano than Jersey Joe despite his younger age.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

You changed your question. The original question wasn't "Who is most formidable and toughest opponent Rocky Marciano beat?" Nor it is "Who is the best heavyweight Rocky Marciano beat?" The question is "Who is the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat?" I agreed with Buzz that it was Archie. Had Marciano ever fought Willie Pep, I would have said Pep.

In going back just now and seeing that you qualified the question in your first text as ". . . the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime," I'd change my answer and say Louis since, prime to prime, I think Louis was a better overall fighter than Archie. But again, had Marciano ever fought Willie Pep, I might still say Pep, since the question is fighter, not heavyweight, and Willie was arguably a better fighter, prime to prime, than Louis.

Marciano said his toughest opponent was Walcott in their first fight. I'm happy to take his word for it.

I'm not qualifying anything...Here's my original question :

"Who was the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime?"

We seem to be debating whether Rocky's tougest opponent was a thirty eight or thirty nine year old man...

All the obscurantist arguments in the world notwithstanding, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, or Joe Louis were not the same boxers at 37, 38, and 39 that they were at 27, 28, and 29...The laws of physiology are immutable...As one ages, especially as they close in on the fourth decade of life their lens thicken, their reflexes slow, and the amount of fat to muscle increases...Boxing isn't golf and a boxer isn't a punter or field goal kicker whose performance is not as greatly affected by age...

Look at the career arcs of Sugar Ray Robinson, Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Muhammad Ali, etcetera ; they all started losing fights late in their career to boxers they would have embarrassed at any other point ...Did they all of sudden forgot how to box?

[BoxBuzz]

I just wish that Moore Walcott fight would have been made.......I have to repeat that Moore's losses to Charles do NOT tell the story...one fighter eventually wore down while the other was warming up regarding the game.....Moore would have done just fine by that time against Walcott. Moore got BETTER by that time....believe it.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

TheOneISHere-Are you really asking " Who at the time of his fight vs Marciano fight, was the best heavyweight that he beat?"

If so, I'm going with Walcott in the first fight.

-Ambling Alp

Yes sir... Here's my question verbatim:

"Who was the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime?"


You have made the argument quite forcefully and in my opinion correctly on this board that a shot boxer's losses shouldn't be held against him or at the least those losses need to be seen in that light...

A logical corollary to that argument is that a boxer's wins against shot fighters shouldn't be held in his favor or at least those wins need to be seen in that light...

We all love Rocky...He beat up everybody he fought...It's just that the best men he beat up were all past their prime and some more past their prime than others...

In this thread somebody suggested the Old Mongoose wasn't really that old at 39...I have seen folks on other boards suggest that Louis was barely out of his prime when he lost to Marciano...

[raylawpc]

You changed your question. The original question wasn't "Who is most formidable and toughest opponent Rocky Marciano beat?" Nor it is "Who is the best heavyweight Rocky Marciano beat?" The question is "Who is the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat?" I agreed with Buzz that it was Archie. Had Marciano ever fought Willie Pep, I would have said Pep.

In going back just now and seeing that you qualified the question in your first text as ". . . the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime," I'd change my answer and say Louis since, prime to prime, I think Louis was a better overall fighter than Archie. But again, had Marciano ever fought Willie Pep, I might still say Pep, since the question is fighter, not heavyweight, and Willie was arguably a better fighter, prime to prime, than Louis.

Marciano said his toughest opponent was Walcott in their first fight. I'm happy to take his word for it.

I'm not qualifying anything...Here's my original question :

"Who was the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime?"

We seem to be debating whether Rocky's tougest opponent was a thirty eight or thirty nine year old man...

All the obscurantist arguments in the world notwithstanding, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, or Joe Louis were not the same boxers at 37, 38, and 39 that they were at 27, 28, and 29...The laws of physiology are immutable...As one ages, especially as they close in on the fourth decade of life their lens thicken, their reflexes slow, and the amount of fat to muscle increases...Boxing isn't golf and a boxer isn't a punter or field goal kicker whose performance is not as greatly affected by age...

Look at the career arcs of Sugar Ray Robinson, Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr, Muhammad Ali, etcetera ; they all started losing fights late in their career to boxers they would have embarrassed at any other point ...Did they all of sudden forgot how to box?

You asked "Who was the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when that fighter was in his prime?" And I am saying that Louis was better in his prime than Moore, Walcott, Charles were in their primes. Is that not what you were saying? Or did you mean "Who was the best fighter Rocky Marciano beat when Marciano was in his prime?" That's a different question than what you wrote.

Again, Rocky said Walcott gave him his toughest fight . . . so who am I to disagree with him . . .

[HomicideHenry]

Marciano said something along the lines that the only man who ever hurt him in the ring, who made him fight harder than he ever done before was against Ezzard Charles the first time they fought. I'll try to find the source, but I do know that Marciano did in fact say that of Ezzard Charles.