Rau'shee Warren loses his first bout

[Roberts J]

New rules are coming correct ? 3x3 minute round next year. The scoring system needs to be looked at. That's me as a boxer taking a look at it. What happened to judging bouts on defense,offense ability, skill, ring generalship and aggression. That's what boxing is about. I just think if their is so much controversy with this system is needs a change. I am not sure exactly what but something that will give the sport a spark. Just my 2 cents.

[emile]

What if the ring canvas was transparent and Melanie and the other judges laid underneath and scored from below?

Anyway. No matter what we come up with, there are going to be complaints. I think amateur boxing being a less punishing form of the sport is fine - it allows some fighters without that physicality to compete and it allows young fighters to learn the most technical aspects of the sport without beating them to a pulp.

Jerome Thomas also lost and said he will turn pro. I was not aware of his full story.

The Frenchman, who overcame a rare birth defect to win bronze in 2000 in Sydney and silver four years ago, will never win a gold medal after being outpointed by Juan Carlos Payano of the Dominican Republic in his first bout.
The 29-year-old, who has a left arm shorter than his right, no left pectoral muscle and needed seven operations to separate the fingers of his left hand, will now turn professional.

Thomas was very gracious in defeat, saying that his body simply could not manage staying at the same weight.

[CoreyWash]

isnt that how it used to be with 3x3 minute rounds?

[boxmel]

What happened to judging bouts on defense,offense ability, skill, ring generalship and aggression.

JRoberts - the above has NEVER been amateur boxing criteria. Ever! I suggest you go to the next official's clinic in your LBC - you'd be surprised at what you learn. 8)

[boxmel]

physicality

, said Emile. You've been listening to Atlas too much. Yes, it is a word:

: intensely physical orientation : predominance of the physical usually at the expense of the mental, spiritual, or social
2 : a physical aspect or quality

However, I think Teddy's just using it to sound like he knows what he's talking about.

Corey - yes, it used to be 3-3's for open boxers. It's all still 11 minutes total, whether for 4-2's or 3-3's.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/share. ... Post_JA115 (Recap with commentary and video)
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/share. ... rren_JA114 (Live broadcast with commentary and Raushee's live reaction when corner tells him he lost)

Even in the clips, I saw what I thought were scoring blows not scored, but you have to be able to adjust to that and work more - I guess.

I don't like the fact that Campbell, who professed he was the most qualified for this job due to his expertise in international boxing AND scoring, now seems to be lost as far as what the judges are looking for.

Teddy Atlas talking about the break in action with less that 40 seconds left where Korean boxer had equipment issues and Warren was in a neutral corner. Warren looks at the stands and they directly above the ring (was score above ring?), before briefly looking at his corner " You gotta wonder whether those problems [between coaches and boxers] came into play where there isn't a relationship there [with coaches] and where normally a fighter may look at the corner. . .maybe he didn't look at the corner." At 13 second mark, Campbell says he was yelling "punch, punch, punch". What they hell does that mean for a fighter who apparently thinks he's winning. Maybe they should have yelled "Your losing, your losing. . . "

Wow.

[Roberts J]

What happened to judging bouts on defense,offense ability, skill, ring generalship and aggression.

JRoberts - the above has NEVER been amateur boxing criteria. Ever! I suggest you go to the next official's clinic in your LBC - you'd be surprised at what you learn. 8)

Indeed. But the system is flawed. I think it should be tossed or have a serious look taken at it. personally it doesnt deter me from staying amtuer till 2012 and trying for the team, but other boxers might see it and figure that it is not even worth the trouble. This is from gym talk i have heard in Chicago.Bouts scored on 10 point system. Like in the pro's or use clickers and tally all the numbers, it would be more accurate. Watching Ray Leonard fights and Ali in the Olmypics the decisions seemed fair and the scoring fair. Sure you will have a few bad apples but it was great to watch and great to fight I am sure, knowing you hold your own fate more then the current system. What do you think ? I just want amateur olympic boxing to be exciting again. Why not go back to the rules they had in the 70's and 80's ?

[emile]

Why not go back to the rules they had in the 70's and 80's ?

[Roberts J]

Like I said there will always be bad apples and corruption. But It can be fought. I just want a clear answer on how best to judge amateur boxing and keep it fair to the boxers and the fans.

[boxmel]

Uh, Emile - what's the picture for????

Even in the clips, I saw what I thought were scoring blows not scored,

But you weren't seeing what each judge was seeing - just what the camera showed you. And you also didn't see all 4 rounds - just clips.

Yes - the scoreboard is above the ring and, as far as I know, the boxers can see it.

[therealPunchDrunk]

Aren't they changing the scoring system to individual point scores, that will then be called as a 5-0, 4-1, or 3-2 judges verdict? Or didn't that get passed anyway? I thought that was to take effect at the same time as the 3x3 rule.

Personally, I think the scoring system is OK. They need to look at how it's used. I liked it a lot better a couple years ago, when the scores were higher, and you could get points for a jab. To me, the biggest problem is not the system, but the ability/intentions of the human beings using it, and the corruption.

[Roberts J]

Aren't they changing the scoring system to individual point scores, that will then be called as a 5-0, 4-1, or 3-2 judges verdict? Or didn't that get passed anyway? I thought that was to take effect at the same time as the 3x3 rule.

Personally, I think the scoring system is OK. They need to look at how it's used. I liked it a lot better a couple years ago, when the scores were higher, and you could get points for a jab. To me, the biggest problem is not the system, but the ability/intentions of the human beings using it, and the corruption.

Agreed. I think you hit it on the spot. I would prefer the individual point scores.

[emile]

and the corruption.

Is there any evidence of corruption at all? I don't like to see this term thrown around easily. It may be that the judges are slightly influenced by the crowd and by the more decorated boxer, but this is not corruption and is present in pretty much every sport with judges.

Another consequence of a transparent scoring system is that coaches will find ways to game the scoring. I think the style of fighting is pretty much fine though - maybe not enough disincentive to hold.

[emile]

Aren't they changing the scoring system to individual point scores, that will then be called as a 5-0, 4-1, or 3-2 judges verdict? Or didn't that get passed anyway? I thought that was to take effect at the same time as the 3x3 rule.

I think I would like this change. You would still have the individual accountability, but perhaps truer scores.

Does anyone know if the raw scores for the Olympics are posted anywhere? AIBA doesn't have them.

[boxmel]

Aren't they changing the scoring system to individual point scores, that will then be called as a 5-0, 4-1, or 3-2 judges verdict? Or didn't that get passed anyway? I thought that was to take effect at the same time as the 3x3 rule.

Have heard rumors but am not sure. Maybe going back to 5-0, etc. will get rid of the angst felt by boxers and coaches when they see computer scoring points they don't understand. JRoberts - if the scoring is given as above, you won't know what the total individual judges scores are. You can read the end of bout reports now and see if it's a 5-0 or etc. The computer is currently set up to show points. Don't know how, or if, they will redo the software to have it come out 5-0.

I just watched the clips. First of all, from the point of view of the camera, I didn't SEE any punches that weren't scored. And I did see Rau'shee look up and, at 5 seconds, the referee gave Rau'shee a caution to "box." And it was an awfully sloppy bout with lots of wrestling and holding. Ugly, as a matter of fact. JMHO.

[boxmel]

Does anyone know if the raw scores for the Olympics are posted anywhere? AIBA doesn't have them.

Emile, raw scores are NEVER posted and NEVER shown to coaches on the end of bout reports.

[emile]

You mean in the Olympics? They posted them at the World Championships, unless 'raw scores' means something different than how I'm using it.

[therealPunchDrunk]

and the corruption.

Is there any evidence of corruption at all? I don't like to see this term thrown around easily. It may be that the judges are slightly influenced by the crowd and by the more decorated boxer, but this is not corruption and is present in pretty much every sport with judges.

Another consequence of a transparent scoring system is that coaches will find ways to game the scoring. I think the style of fighting is pretty much fine though - maybe not enough disincentive to hold.

Well, depends on how you define corruption. I'm not talking about pay offs or anything, just biased judges. I know for a fact that this goes on domestically in my country, certain judges not liking certain clubs or trainers or fighters, and making them pay for it in the scoring. I've also seen enough international contests, to know this goes on. The host country always gets a bunch of gifts, some more obvious than others. Ugas vs. Sipal, and Correa vs another Turk, in Turkey in 2007 come to mind. Correa had the Turk on his back three times in the 4th, the Turk didn't even punch, he just clinched or turned his back and ran (literally), yet he wins the round 5-0...

[therealPunchDrunk]

I've seen the raw scores at a couple of international tournaments, and in Scandinavia, I've often went and asked for them (and gotten them) after one of my fighter's bouts.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

I just watched the clips. First of all, from the point of view of the camera, I didn't SEE any punches that weren't scored. And I did see Rau'shee look up and, at 5 seconds, the referee gave Rau'shee a caution to "box." JMHO.

Mel, you judging from video! Welcome Seriously, what about at at 1:47 a scoring blow to the midsection is scored for Korean boxer, at 1:41 Raushee lands a similar cross to the midsection that sends the Korean boxer to the ropes where he grabs Warren. No point for Warren. Same at 1:05, Warren lands a cross to the midsection that looks similar to what the Korean landed and scored with. No point for Warren.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

We were shown raw scores by head of officials at National JOs. They were shown to help us understand how the scoring works. Except in our case raw scores for 3 judges had our boxer winning. Based on computer scoring, we lost the bout.

[boxmel]

You mean in the Olympics? They posted them at the World Championships, unless 'raw scores' means something different than how I'm using it.

Sorry, Emile - getting old and becoming more forgetful is annoying. They are obviously not posting them for the Olympics and yes, they did, in the Worlds. I know that in the U.S. we don't show the raw scores in keeping with the practice of not identifying the individual judges and how they scored. That can open up a huge can of worms!

[boxmel]

Well, depends on how you define corruption. I'm not talking about pay offs or anything, just biased judges. I know for a fact that this goes on domestically in my country, certain judges not liking certain clubs or trainers or fighters, and making them pay for it in the scoring.

Are you using computer scoring in your country? Just curious. It's really hard to cheat on the computer unless you are blatently doing so - which can be seen by the tech if it's happening.

We were shown raw scores by head of officials at National JOs. They were shown to help us understand how the scoring works. Except in our case raw scores for 3 judges had our boxer winning. Based on computer scoring, we lost the bout.

Were you shown the raw score on the end of bout report or were you shown the paper scoring? I don't see how the computer report would show the "raw" or "individual" score one way and the accepted score for another. If the judge is pushing the button more consistently for one corner, the accepted score will reflect this.

Mel, you judging from video! Welcome

I proved my own point to myself that you CAN'T judge from a video.

Seriously, what about at at 1:47 a scoring blow to the midsection is scored for Korean boxer, at 1:41 Raushee lands a similar cross to the midsection that sends the Korean boxer to the ropes where he grabs Warren. No point for Warren. Same at 1:05, Warren lands a cross to the midsection that looks similar to what the Korean landed and scored with. No point for Warren.

I did not SEE any legal effective punches land that I would score.

[therealPunchDrunk]

You mean in the Olympics? They posted them at the World Championships, unless 'raw scores' means something different than how I'm using it.

Sorry, Emile - getting old and becoming more forgetful is annoying. They are obviously not posting them for the Olympics and yes, they did, in the Worlds. I know that in the U.S. we don't show the raw scores in keeping with the practice of not identifying the individual judges and how they scored. That can open up a huge can of worms!

And expose a few crooks

[therealPunchDrunk]

Well, depends on how you define corruption. I'm not talking about pay offs or anything, just biased judges. I know for a fact that this goes on domestically in my country, certain judges not liking certain clubs or trainers or fighters, and making them pay for it in the scoring.

Are you using computer scoring in your country? Just curious. It's really hard to cheat on the computer unless you are blatently doing so - which can be seen by the tech if it's happening.

We were shown raw scores by head of officials at National JOs. They were shown to help us understand how the scoring works. Except in our case raw scores for 3 judges had our boxer winning. Based on computer scoring, we lost the bout.

Were you shown the raw score on the end of bout report or were you shown the paper scoring? I don't see how the computer report would show the "raw" or "individual" score one way and the accepted score for another. If the judge is pushing the button more consistently for one corner, the accepted score will reflect this.

Mel, you judging from video! Welcome

I proved my own point to myself that you CAN'T judge from a video.

Seriously, what about at at 1:47 a scoring blow to the midsection is scored for Korean boxer, at 1:41 Raushee lands a similar cross to the midsection that sends the Korean boxer to the ropes where he grabs Warren. No point for Warren. Same at 1:05, Warren lands a cross to the midsection that looks similar to what the Korean landed and scored with. No point for Warren.

I did not SEE any legal effective punches land that I would score.

Yeah, we use computer. It's pretty easy to cheat, you just push the button a little late, or if you just don't care, not at all. They get away with it. I had a kid school this other kid, then lost by a few points. Afterwards, the ref comes over to me, apologises, says my kid should have won, and so do two of the judges. I go to the supervisor, and he basically tells me that one judge was apparently scoring against my kid on purpose. He says he can't tell me who, which didn't matter much because I knew who it was. The supervisor even called the "president" of my club, and apologized for what happened. So I talked to the head of the officials here, and he basically said he couldn't do anything, because they needed all the judges they could get, but he'd make sure the guy wouldn't be allowed to judge at the nationals. Turns out the guy was judging the same kid again, and my kid got a raw deal once more in the semifinals...

I'm confused as to what you call raw scores now... I usually get a print out of the scoring, with both the combined score, and the individual score of each judge, plus the accepted score of each judge.
Some places, Ive seen a screen that showed how the judges pressed for the punches, as it happened.