Rau'shee Warren loses his first bout

[Gray-Fox]

Raushee was robbed, and his corner are idiots.

[Kolya]

I'm telling you, heads are going to roll for this.

[Dennis]

The corner should definitely have worked out a game plan on how to convey the score to the boxer. They have had 12 months to work on it. I would have had my boxer know to look to the corner for a signal (of course, doing this during a clinch, a break in the action or when they are at a distance as to not get hit). The signal could be very simple - hold a red hat/flag/bandana/water bottle in the air if the boxer is behind and needs to let it all out or a hold up a green hat/flag/bandana/water bottle in the air if the boxer is in the lead and should stay away.

Trust me - open scoring will cause more running and holding in the later rounds than either closed scoring or the open scoring used in the U.S. which is giving the corner the scores in between rounds only. With that situation, Rau'shee would have known the score was tied and then nobody would know for sure who was winning until the bout was over. Both boxers would be worried that they might not be in the lead. Then again, we have closed scoring in the pros and OSCAR believed he was ahead of Tito and ran for the last couple of rounds which cost him the decision.

[boxmel]

I'm confused as to what you call raw scores now... I usually get a print out of the scoring, with both the combined score, and the individual score of each judge, plus the accepted score of each judge.

Sorry - "raw score" is the same as "individual score."

[Dennis]

emile - the photo is of Roy Jones Jr. correct? I think you were trying to say that the scoring wasn't any better in the past and use RJJ as an example. That is true. I think Floyd Jr. also comes to mind. The one thing that is clear is that people used to like watching amateur boxing more in the past than they do now. Breland does not like the pitter-pat style and hit and run/hold styles that are all the rage with the ESS. If we go back to paper scoring with a 20 point must system it MIGHT make it more interesting again. Will there still be complaints of corruption and bias? YEP. They still use completely subjective scoring with gymnastics and it is very popular. Why couldn't we let the boxing judges score based upone some criteria that would include offense, defense, ring generalship, aggression, etc? Take away points for excessive running, excessive holding, or anything else that might make the bouts less interesting. Add a 10 second SHOT CLOCK. Give shot clock violations. No matter what there will be problems, but we do need to make more people want to watch OUR SPORT.

Having Teddy Atlas openly criticize everything about amateur boxing does not help our sport.

[boxmel]

I'm telling you, heads are going to roll for this.

And who's going to chop them off? At this point, it would have to be a USOC decision. We'll see.

The corner should definitely have worked out a game plan on how to convey the score to the boxer.

I haven't seen any other boxers have the same problem - plus, as I said before, the boxers can see the scores.

Trust me - open scoring will cause more running and holding in the later rounds

Yep.

the open scoring used in the U.S. which is giving the corner the scores in between rounds only.

Starting with the U.S. Championships this year, there are now two huge monitors that are faced out toward the audience

[Dennis]

You definitely can have a boxer lose with the accepted score who would have won with the raw scores of the individual judges. It has happened to my son a couple of times. It obviously has to be a close bout for that to happen so you can't say it is a robbery.

I can say that coaches do have boxers run or hold once they get a lead with the current ESS so that does make it less viewer friendly.

[Dennis]

FACT - The residency program did not work for this Olympics. It is clear that something has to change. Why didn't it work? That question has to be answered. Is it because the personal coaches weren't involved? Is it the fault of the coaches who ran the program? Is it that we have a bunch of spoiled boxers? Did the boxers need to have more breaks to visit family, friends, wives/girlfriends, and children? Do we need to have the boxers compete more often?

[Kolya]

I think the problem is we've sent kids, some of whom didn't want to be stuck in CS, and who didn't have much international experience, and they came up against guys who are older, more mature, and more experienced.

[boxmel]

You definitely can have a boxer lose with the accepted score who would have won with the raw scores of the individual judges.

In my 8 years of ESS teching, I have never seen an end of bout report that had that type of situation. I do know that often times the paper scoring will have an opposite result and that's why those score cards are shredded immediately at the end of the bout.

I

can say that coaches do have boxers run or hold once they get a lead with the current ESS so that does make it less viewer friendly.

That's the problem with open scoring - not the ESS. I don't know why it would be less viewer friendly - the pros do it all the time.

[boxmel]

I

think the problem is we've sent kids, some of whom didn't want to be stuck in CS, and who didn't have much international experience, and they came up against guys who are older, more mature, and more experienced.

The boxers were unaware of the fact that they would be REQUIRED to enter the residency program until it was shown to them on the contract they signed after they won the Trials. One of the big reasons for choosing the team a year ahead of time was to give them a year's worth of international experience. Cough. Cough.

Rau'shee and Demetrius already had experience; next would be Shawn and Luis; and the rest would be in the no, to hardly any, international experience category.

[generic screen name]

I think I'm having a problem with the damn scoring system. How do you score a point when you got hit and go to the ground??? How do you score a point when you just got countered?? These type of things should NOT be happening. PERIOD! I'm taking nothing away from Lee Ok-Sung and at the end Warren lost. But do not tell me that those points were not pathetically scored!!

[boxmel]

I think I'm having a problem with the damn scoring system.

Most people do. You are not alone.

How do you score a point when you got hit and go to the ground???

Were you hit with a legal shot? Did you get slapped down? Possibly pushed (happens a lot)? Did your foot get stepped on (happens a lot with south paw and righty)? Lots of ifs.

How do you score a point when you just got countered??

Not sure what you mean. If both boxers throw clean legal shots and they both land, and the judges see them, points will score.

[Salsero]

When you play politics in boxing, at the end - we all fail. The problem is not the talent of our athletes it’s the favoritism, and corrupted buddy system that has ruined the sport since the late 80s.

The problem is at the top and I don’t believe there will be any change in the near future. USA Boxing Inc will never admit they have a system that’s is detiriorating
under their nose.

Our boxers are among the best in the world - till they arrive in Colorado and get in the mix of inexperience coaches and a corrupted system.

If you have been involved in the sport for more than 15-20 years, you understand the corruption. We have watched selection process of athletes, coaches, and officials that blows everyone’s mind – how USA Boxing undermined the system.

Unless we remove the rust and the present corrupted system, we will never become once again the superpower. This Olympic staff is a joke. The worst I’ve seen since 1992.

I seriously don’t see us near the medal count of 1996 (2 gold medals in Atlanta). The medal count continues to decline at a very rapid pace. 2012 will be a disaster if changes are not made starting TODAY!

I’m still hopeful for at least one or two medals.

[Kolya]

We only one 1 Gold in Atlanta. David Reid was it I think.

[boxmel]

Oh Goodie - I LOVE a good debate!!! 8)

The problem is not the talent of our athletes it’s the favoritism, and corrupted buddy system that has ruined the sport since the late 80s.

Please explain in detail exactly what the favoratism and buddy system is.

USA Boxing Inc will never admit they have a system that’s is detiriorating under their nose.

AIBA system? USOC system? USA Boxing system? What system?

Our boxers are among the best in the world - till they arrive in Colorado and get in the mix of inexperience coaches and a corrupted system.

What is the corrupted system in Colorado Springs? I may give you some points for inexperienced coaches, however Willie Price and Dan Campbell have had a good dose of international and other experience in the past.

If you have been involved in the sport for more than 15-20 years, you understand the corruption.

I have and I don't.

We have watched selection process of athletes, coaches, and officials that blows everyone’s mind – how USA Boxing undermined the system.

Details, please.

Unless we remove the rust and the present corrupted system, we will never become once again the superpower.

And your suggestions and solutions are?

I seriously don’t see us near the medal count of 1996 (2 gold medals in Atlanta).

Atlanta: Bronze - Mayweather, Cauthen, Wells, Tarver, Jones; Gold - Reid. Total: 6 medals. You should probably do your research before posting.

[Grey]

I think it comes down to the fact many of the guys on this team don't have the necessary international experience. Plain and freakin' simple.

Olympic boxing might be boring, but I think our boys have lost fair and square so far. What was Warren thinking just running around the ring like that? I don't care if you're up by 100, fight until the end, nothing is a given!

[therealPunchDrunk]

The corner should definitely have worked out a game plan on how to convey the score to the boxer. They have had 12 months to work on it. I would have had my boxer know to look to the corner for a signal (of course, doing this during a clinch, a break in the action or when they are at a distance as to not get hit). The signal could be very simple - hold a red hat/flag/bandana/water bottle in the air if the boxer is behind and needs to let it all out or a hold up a green hat/flag/bandana/water bottle in the air if the boxer is in the lead and should stay away.

Trust me - open scoring will cause more running and holding in the later rounds than either closed scoring or the open scoring used in the U.S. which is giving the corner the scores in between rounds only. With that situation, Rau'shee would have known the score was tied and then nobody would know for sure who was winning until the bout was over. Both boxers would be worried that they might not be in the lead. Then again, we have closed scoring in the pros and OSCAR believed he was ahead of Tito and ran for the last couple of rounds which cost him the decision.

Funny, I just used the Oscar-Tito example someplace else! :)

I think the between rounds only open scoring would be the best way to go (that is used here as well). You'll have the tactics of knowing you have to go out and catch up to the other guy's lead, at the same time you'll have to keep fighting if you're ahead, because you won't know if your lead is still there.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

I think it comes down to the fact many of the guys on this team don't have the necessary international experience. Plain and freakin' simple.

Olympic boxing might be boring, but I think our boys have lost fair and square so far. What was Warren thinking just running around the ring like that? I don't care if you're up by 100, fight until the end, nothing is a given!

Haven't you been watching the Olympics?? I've watched about 90% of the bouts broadcast and ever boxer that gets up by 3 or more pts, runs and dodges any action to hold the lead. You have to use the rules to your advantage, so I can't blame them - but that's not the Olympic boxing of old (pre 1988). You can't blame a boxer for taking advantage of the way things are setup. I watched the Warren bout again and I don't agree with the scoring both ways. At one point, Warren gets a pt while he falls down and doesn't through a punch. Also, the Korean boxer get countered with a slip/cross and he gets a pt. Obviously, many judges are incapable of counting/scoring blow by blow. This has nothing to do with experience as Warren has plenty of international experience and is the current World Champion and two-time Olympian. How much more international experience do you need. Warren should have known the score, that's a fact. I agree with you on that point.

[boxmel]

I think the between rounds only open scoring would be the best way to go (that is used here as well).

Please remember that Wu's promise, after all the "Chowdhry Corruption Years," was to put in open scoring as THE way to make sure the judging is fair. Therefore, I don't think you'll see it go back to just the corners. Boxing has been on the verge of being eliminated from the Olympics for many years now. AIBA has to do something to keep it in.

I watched the Warren bout again

Came home from work. Plopped down on the couch. Turned on the TV. Hit the DVR list and the SOB (probably me for not selecting) didn't get yesterday afternoon's bouts! Does anyone at least have a copy of Warren's bout? I'd be more than happy to pay your costs. Thanks.

[Gray-Fox]

The US team are laughable, save for Raynell Williams. They all try and be professional superstars but look like idiots. That's why there's no clear successor to Floyd Mayweather Jr in the professional ranks. RJJ's influence (his fighting style) has ruined the USA's amateur future lol.

[DCAmateurBoxing]

The US team are laughable, save for Raynell Williams. They all try and be professional superstars but look like idiots. That's why there's no clear successor to Floyd Mayweather Jr in the professional ranks. RJJ's influence (his fighting style) has ruined the USA's amateur future lol.

Your only saying that in hindsight because they have lost early. I don't remember you saying that before the games started. I think a lot of times, the media doesn't help by putting some boxers on a pedestal. That's the American way, unfortunately. When kids who may not have had a lot of things they are "great" at doing start reading their own press clippings and listening to the people around them - they do get a big head. But, I also think if we (Americans) had as much access to other countries boxers' as the World does our team - we may have formed different opinions too about some of these foreign boxers that are unfamiliar to us. Our boxers are on TV, magazine, radio, etc a lot more than other countries. I really couldn't tell you one thing about the personality or background of Frankie Gavin for example. But you could ask someone in London about Luis Yanez or Raushee Warren and they've already formed an opinion based on what they've read.

[Gray-Fox]

The US team are laughable, save for Raynell Williams. They all try and be professional superstars but look like idiots. That's why there's no clear successor to Floyd Mayweather Jr in the professional ranks. RJJ's influence (his fighting style) has ruined the USA's amateur future lol.

Your only saying that in hindsight because they have lost early. I don't remember you saying that before the games started. I think a lot of times, the media doesn't help by putting some boxers on a pedestal. That's the American way, unfortunately. When kids who may not have had a lot of things they are "great" at doing start reading their own press clippings and listening to the people around them - they do get a big head. But, I also think if we (Americans) had as much access to other countries boxers' as the World does our team - we may have formed different opinions too about some of these foreign boxers that are unfamiliar to us. Our boxers are on TV, magazine, radio, etc a lot more than other countries. I really couldn't tell you one thing about the personality or background of Frankie Gavin for example. But you could ask someone in London about Luis Yanez or Raushee Warren and they've already formed an opinion based on what they've read.

Find my posts where I waxed lyrical about the Yanks before Beijing. I've always thought they were a laughing stock, have been since 1996 to be honest, save for one or two fighters. They are more style than substance.

[Kolya]

The US team are laughable, save for Raynell Williams. They all try and be professional superstars but look like idiots. That's why there's no clear successor to Floyd Mayweather Jr in the professional ranks. RJJ's influence (his fighting style) has ruined the USA's amateur future lol.

Your only saying that in hindsight because they have lost early. I don't remember you saying that before the games started. I think a lot of times, the media doesn't help by putting some boxers on a pedestal. That's the American way, unfortunately. When kids who may not have had a lot of things they are "great" at doing start reading their own press clippings and listening to the people around them - they do get a big head. But, I also think if we (Americans) had as much access to other countries boxers' as the World does our team - we may have formed different opinions too about some of these foreign boxers that are unfamiliar to us. Our boxers are on TV, magazine, radio, etc a lot more than other countries. I really couldn't tell you one thing about the personality or background of Frankie Gavin for example. But you could ask someone in London about Luis Yanez or Raushee Warren and they've already formed an opinion based on what they've read.

Find my posts where I waxed lyrical about the Yanks before Beijing. I've always thought they were a laughing stock, have been since 1996 to be honest, save for one or two fighters. They are more style than substance.

And where are you from? The 2000 team was a weak one and 2004 had some good boxers on it. It's still to be seen how this one finishes.

[Gray-Fox]

And where are you from? The 2000 team was a weak one and 2004 had some good boxers on it. It's still to be seen how this one finishes.

Where I'm from is irrelevant to this debate. I know effective boxing when I see it. Even Raushee, he's good, but tries too hard to be flashy, to his detriment. That Korean shouldn't have touched him.