Amateur Rules Reform Suggestion Forum

[emile]

I guess we need a thread for this, since the discussion is going on in the Rau'Shee Warren thread. I think it's clear that there is room for improvement, so let's hear everybody's ideas. I think improvement needs to be looked at in terms of accuracy and fairness, and making the sport more enticing to viewers.

My thoughts on ideas from the other thread.

3X3 vs 4X2 - rumored to be changed. I would support this. I think that longer rounds would benefit the fighters from countries with less developed programs and make for more dramatic fights. Although there would be some horrific to watch rounds of extended hugging, but whatever.

Individual scores instead of accepted scores - I believe also rumored to be under consideration, although I'm not certain how it would be effectuated. I went through all of the fights from Chicago that went the distance to see if they would have changed the scores were based on judges individual scores. There were 13 fights where a fighter who had the majority on individual scoring that lost on accepted scores, as well as another eight where there was a tie on individual scoring. The most prominent of these was the Russo-Chakhiev final, where they were tied in individual scoring (1 judge each and three tied scores), and the fight between Hanati and Boonjumnong in the 69kg semi which Hanati won 3-2 based on individual scores. I like this change as it keeps accountability and maintains the same objective system, but does not require the same level of coordination between judges. As a way to bring more drama, they could have a light board with red, blue and white lights that would show the leader by judge after each round.

Closed scoring vs open scoring - we seem pretty well in agreement about this here. Does the IOC insist on open scoring? I wonder if there could be a compromise and use scoring only in between rounds. Or hide values until the end, if using a system as I suggested above, only letting the boxers know what the tally is among the judges (3-2, 4-1 etc) and not know the exact values.

[CoreyWash]

i think i would like the 3x3 minute change..it would slow everything down to where some boxers wouldnt go out there lookin all crazy and wild trying to score points..it also would be good for the pure boxers that like to take their time and break their opponents down like myself..i hate having to rush..i also think they should do away with the point system..as someone mentioned in rau'shee warren's thread..they should go off of ring generalship, offense, defense, technique, etc..i think it would also make the transition from amateur to pro alot easier..i have heard plenty of decorated amateurs that have won all these national championships, and when they turn pro they struggle..idk thats just the way i feel..im looking forward to what everyone else has to say..

[emile]

Corey, I think any suggestions about scrapping the point system are just not realistic. If amateur boxing is going to be an Olympic sport, it cannot have a scoring system that has that much ambiguity.

[CoreyWash]

yeah ur right emile..its very frustrating tho..no matter what they choose to do its always gonna be flaws so i guess we all just have to make the best of it..

[Dennis]

Corey, I think any suggestions about scrapping the point system are just not realistic. If amateur boxing is going to be an Olympic sport, it cannot have a scoring system that has that much ambiguity.

Why not? Gymnastics does it. So does figure skating in the Winter Olympics. They have guidelines that the judges are supposed to follow but there is plenty of discretion to make it purely subjective.

[Dennis]

My understanding is the 3x3 and individual scores of each judge are done deals starting next year. I look forward to both.

[Gray-Fox]

The fact that only straight rights/lefts and CLEAR hooks score is ridiculous. Body shots or jabs do NOT score, unless they're from a Chinese boxer. The scoring is a joke.

[emile]

Corey, I think any suggestions about scrapping the point system are just not realistic. If amateur boxing is going to be an Olympic sport, it cannot have a scoring system that has that much ambiguity.

Why not? Gymnastics does it. So does figure skating in the Winter Olympics. They have guidelines that the judges are supposed to follow but there is plenty of discretion to make it purely subjective.

I don't think gymnastics does artistic scoring any more do they? I thought they had a prescribed boundary set from which they calculate the difficulty and demerits - which is subjective, but not completely so. I think this is why I was watching some 6 year old Chinese girl shaking her ass pretty unartistically last night as she won a gold medal.

I think figure skating and diving may still use totally subjective criteria, and frankly, it doesn't work there either. It's too reputation based and, at least in figure skating, causes a hell of a lot more controversy than boxing scoring. I suppose you could reduce those sports strictly to scoring elements - and I think that is the direction the IOC is moving.

[boxmel]

Individual scores instead of accepted scores - I believe also rumored to be under consideration, although I'm not certain how it would be effectuated.

Me, either. And, as I have stated before, you can "cheat" on invididual scores by pushing the button for just one boxer - and I have seen that happen. There is no checks and balances if you take away the accepted criteria. If you get more than one judge doing this, then you have a real problem. I did a USA-Mexico dual in 2000 where one of the Mexican judges was pushing the button for only the Mexican boxer. Because of the "accepted" criteria, he wasn't able to affect the outcome. Because I could see what he was doing and bring it to the attention of the head official, he was talked to and it didn't happen again. So, I am not for individual scoring.

I went through all of the fights from Chicago that went the distance to see if they would have changed the scores were based on judges individual scores. There were 13 fights where a fighter who had the majority on individual scoring that lost on accepted scores,

Emile, did you notice where or more than one individual score was tied? If this is the case, that is the only time you will see the individual scores different than the accepted, as in the Russo-Chakhiev final. If you want me to, I'll find out why that happens in the case of tied individual scores.

As a way to bring more drama, they could have a light board with red, blue and white lights that would show the leader by judge after each round.

As an amateur boxing judge who has been screamed at and threatened, there is no way I would want anyone to find out how I scored. It is not a good idea to let a coach "see" who "doesn't like his boxer" and who has "deliberately robbed" said boxer. If they ever start showing how judges score, I'll quit. I volunteer. I don't get paid - well, I do pay $40 a year to get abused.

Does the IOC insist on open scoring?

No. This was an AIBA decision to help keep boxing in the Olympics.

[Dennis]

Corey, I think any suggestions about scrapping the point system are just not realistic. If amateur boxing is going to be an Olympic sport, it cannot have a scoring system that has that much ambiguity.

Why not? Gymnastics does it. So does figure skating in the Winter Olympics. They have guidelines that the judges are supposed to follow but there is plenty of discretion to make it purely subjective.

I don't think gymnastics does artistic scoring any more do they? I thought they had a prescribed boundary set from which they calculate the difficulty and demerits - which is subjective, but not completely so. I think this is why I was watching some 6 year old Chinese girl shaking her ass pretty unartistically last night as she won a gold medal.

I think figure skating and diving may still use totally subjective criteria, and frankly, it doesn't work there either. It's too reputation based and, at least in figure skating, causes a hell of a lot more controversy than boxing scoring. I suppose you could reduce those sports strictly to scoring elements - and I think that is the direction the IOC is moving.

First of all, you aren't supposed to be looking at those infants behinds. Are they even out of diapers yet?

Second, you are correct that the IOC is moving towards trying to make the judging less subjective. However, sometimes by doing so you hurt the sport. It can make certain sports boring if you have to follow certain scoring guidelines, b/c everyone caters to the scoring (a smart thing to do to WIN, but does not always make it entertaining).

[boxmel]

Second, you are correct that the IOC is moving towards trying to make the judging less subjective. However, sometimes by doing so you hurt the sport. It can make certain sports boring if you have to follow certain scoring guidelines, b/c everyone caters to the scoring (a smart thing to do to WIN, but does not always make it entertaining

Maybe that's the price that has to be paid to keep scoring controversy out of the Olympics and that would make the IOC VERY happy. 8)

[Dennis]

Mel - for many officials, it might keep them more honest if they knew that there individual score was going to be displayed. I understand your point though. Not all coaches are that way. I have talked to judges who have scored against my boxers by their own admission. I don't chew them out, but I do try to find out what they saw differently from other judges (assuming it was a split decision).
Mel - did you Judge with the old 20 point system? What about clicker scoring? If so, I'm sure you discovered that you can have people get mad at you when there is a 5-0 decision too. Probably not as much as when it is a split decision.

[boxmel]

Mel - for many officials, it might keep them more honest if they knew that there individual score was going to be displayed.

Nah - doesn't mean a thing. One of our computer techs worked a USA-Russia dual some years ago. The Russians were blatently cheating and didn't care who knew it. She pulled the plug on the computer and the Russians were told the computer went down so they went to paper. Besides, it is rare that every judge will have the same individual score as any other - that's the point in having 3 or 5 judges ringside.

I understand your point though. Not all coaches are that way.

You're right. But you do tend to remember those who are. There are two clubs whose boxers Rick and I won't officiate any more because we have been screamed at over perceived injustices.

I have talked to judges who have scored against my boxers by their own admission.

Part of the officials protocol, and it is taught in every clinic, is that you don't tell coaches or boxers how you scored. I never, ever tell anyone how I scored. I will, however, if asked, tell a coach what I saw a boxer do that could be changed for the better.

Mel - did you Judge with the old 20 point system? What about clicker scoring? If so, I'm sure you discovered that you can have people get mad at you when there is a 5-0 decision too. Probably not as much as when it is a split decision.

Yep - started out on the 20-point must - try keeping a count of punches in your head! Of course, you added and subtracted off 1 boxer as there was no way to keep track of both boxer's punches. Clicker and computer scoring is a piece of cake compared. We use clicker scoring at the local and regional levels. Again, it's easier to push a button than it is to keep track of punches in your head. Unfortunately, with the clickers, as with the 20-point must, there is no accountability.

Probably because I'm very outspoken and verbal, I used to get yelled at when I wasn't even judging! Some judges will always feel their boxers got robbed and/or will disagree with the decisions. That's life in amateur boxing.

[skinnyman]

I do not like the fact that amateur boxing has an upper age limit. That is wrong.

[boxmel]

I do not like the fact that amateur boxing has an upper age limit. That is wrong.

That is the determination of the AIBA Medical Commission, based on all sorts of medical data.

However, I do have a hard time trying to figure out why a boxer over the age of 34 would want to get in the ring with a young and fast boxer.
8)

[Kolya]

Some of us have good timing...even then, you still see athletes that don't start to slide until their later 30's.

[boxmel]

Some of us have good timing...

You're over 34, Kolya?????

even then, you still see athletes that don't start to slide until their later 30's.

That's fine - you can compete until your 34. 8)

[Kolya]

No. The thought of turning 25 alone is frightening to me.

[Dennis]

I do not like the fact that amateur boxing has an upper age limit. That is wrong.

That is the determination of the AIBA Medical Commission, based on all sorts of medical data.

However, I do have a hard time trying to figure out why a boxer over the age of 34 would want to get in the ring with a young and fast boxer.
8)

Mel - I'm 42 and I still spar with many young guns. I can teach them things while being in the ring. It definitely is not as easy as it was when I was in my mid 30's and even further removed from when I was in my 20's. I recently sparred with Ryan O'Neal (semi-finalist at NGG) and boy he is a big dude. I'm taller, but he outweighs me. I used to spar Jordan up until a year or two ago. I can't seem to go all out when necessary against my own kid and yet he has no problem doing so against me. What did I do wrong? It must be a father/son thing.

[boxmel]

Mel - I'm 42 and I still spar with many young guns.

Good heavens - you're younger than my oldest daughter! Heh heh. And sparring is totally different then competing in the ring with some young buck who is out to make a statement at your expense.

I recently sparred with Ryan O'Neal (semi-finalist at NGG)

Oh - drat. I thougt you were talking about the movie star.

I can't seem to go all out when necessary against my own kid and yet he has no problem doing so against me. What did I do wrong? It must be a father/son thing.

Are you willing to give it the eeniest, teeniest, barest that it might be encroaching age? Hmmm???

[Dennis]

Yes, age is a huge factor. Hand speed, reflexes and reaction time all deteriorate with age.

[Gray-Fox]

The judges are so biased towards the Chinese boxers, it's unreal.

[skinnyman]

A swimmer is in the Olympics who is 41. Many pro boxers have been champions beyond 35. The age limit for boxing is wrong.

[therealPunchDrunk]

Scoring is always gonna be subjective. Therefore it depends on the abilities and personal integrity of the judges, along with the guidelines they receive, and the outside pressure on them. As for the guidelines, I think they need to go back to a higher score. When both fighters get less than 10 points over a full fight, it just becomes too random. One guy can get a lead because his punch is the one scored, regardless of the fact that the other guy hit him in the same exchange. A higher score would decrease the randomization of who gets the 2-3 point lead, and also make it "easier" to catch up. As for the pressure, I know for a fact this goes on, certain people putting pressure on the judges, in certain countries.
Looking at these Olympics (and a few of the tournaments I've been to in the past year, with the lower scoring), it's obvious that once one guy gets a lead, the judges become all but blind to even the hardest, most obvious punches of his opponent. To an extent, it's natural that you become more aware of a fighter if he's dominant, and less aware of the guy being dominated. But at the Olympics so far, it's a case of one guy getting two points counted, that could have gone the other way, he is then chased around, and in some cases getting hit regularly with the kind of clear shots that normally score, but since the other guy is behind, his punches aren't registerede at all. That is a big problem, and there's just no excusing the judges for this. They are not doing their job well enough! Untill we get judges who are up to the task of judging fairly, no amount of rule changes will make a difference.

[boxmel]

Untill we get judges who are up to the task of judging fairly, no amount of rule changes will make a difference.

How do you think this should be accomplished?