I almost put this in the Marciano thread but decided it could use it's own topic.... which of these "grand unification" ideas holds more water in your opinion?
Boxing and boxers abilities and skill are slowly EVOLVING as people get more "scientific" regarding the study of the sport, nutrition improvment, improved equipment, learning from the past etc. You know how it goes.
VS
Boxing and boxers abilities and skills are slowly DEVOLVING due to greater distractions, the gradual loss of talent pool from the sport due to declining popularity and the daily habits of the general population becoming more sedentary.
You can add a dynamic or two to each of the above statements.
Some would hold that there will be exceptions to these rules but overall the general class of boxer is either better or worse these days due to the assumptions stated above.
There are always exceptional fighters that will defy their "time" but I think most of us subscribe to one of the above general theories.
I suppose one could also say a bit of both can hold true....in other words the "best of the best" may be improving but overall they will stand out even better these days due to the fact that the "average" is going down.
Ok...did I make it confusing enough for you? Pick your poison and opine.
Evolving or Devolving?
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TheOneIsHere2008
- Heavyweight
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Re: Evolving or Devolving?
The talent pool is shrinking...Boxing was seen as a way up as for many white ethnics and African Americans... Now, most of them will pursue careers in non-athletic fields , or if they are athletically inclined will pursue careers in less dangerous sports like basketball, baseball, and football...But if you read about the chronic injuries football players suffer you might demur from that assessment...However the cause and effect in football isn't as readily apparent...
Joe Louis was 6'0 200 pounds and a tremendous athlete...If he was a young man today he might have been went to Auburn University and been the next Bo Jackson...As an aside I think Bo could have been a fighter...He excelled at everything else he did...Ditto for Muhammad Ali...Surprisingly the only sport he liked to participate in beside boxing was tennis and golf...He could allegedly hit a golf ball 300 to 350 yards...He could have been Tiger Woods before Tiger Woods...
Joe Louis was 6'0 200 pounds and a tremendous athlete...If he was a young man today he might have been went to Auburn University and been the next Bo Jackson...As an aside I think Bo could have been a fighter...He excelled at everything else he did...Ditto for Muhammad Ali...Surprisingly the only sport he liked to participate in beside boxing was tennis and golf...He could allegedly hit a golf ball 300 to 350 yards...He could have been Tiger Woods before Tiger Woods...
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
..my i.q.is so high it's embarassing to comment on...but once again i have no idea of what buzzbuzz is talking about. he asks a question then gives some possible answers and then modifies so much they become intelligible.
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
Boxing is at a pretty highly talented level these days and it
has been getting more and more 'advanced' as time and money
moves on.
What boxing lacks these days is heroes and kings. Men that stand
above the rest, men that risk it all for glory and legacy. Now we
have professionals and businessmen who weigh up risk versus
reward.
To many in other nations they have a hero, the Phillipines with
Pacquaio for example...in the USA and most western nations we
do not have this.
At an elite level often when men especially big men meet, they
tend not to go all out when they clash...atleast not these days.
I do not subscribe to the argument that boxers these days are
talented or lazy or that they are over rely on wonder supplements..
I personally feel that today boxing has become less relevant and
that most of its heroes are in the past (perhaps for now) and
many of its champions are lost in a landscape that they have no
control over.
Kym
has been getting more and more 'advanced' as time and money
moves on.
What boxing lacks these days is heroes and kings. Men that stand
above the rest, men that risk it all for glory and legacy. Now we
have professionals and businessmen who weigh up risk versus
reward.
To many in other nations they have a hero, the Phillipines with
Pacquaio for example...in the USA and most western nations we
do not have this.
At an elite level often when men especially big men meet, they
tend not to go all out when they clash...atleast not these days.
I do not subscribe to the argument that boxers these days are
talented or lazy or that they are over rely on wonder supplements..
I personally feel that today boxing has become less relevant and
that most of its heroes are in the past (perhaps for now) and
many of its champions are lost in a landscape that they have no
control over.
Kym
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TheOneIsHere2008
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1181
- Joined: 01 Jul 2008, 12:09
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
Buzz wants to know if boxing is getting better because of more advanced training and nutrional methods or worse because the talent pool is being depleted.Jaclem wrote:..my i.q.is so high it's embarassing to comment on...but once again i have no idea of what buzzbuzz is talking about. he asks a question then gives some possible answers and then modifies so much they become intelligible.
I think he also wants to know if these advances can compensate for a shrinking pool...
When I was a kid in the seventies we would talk about Ali and Foreman and Frazier all the time...I doubt kids today are talking about Maragarito, Cotto, and Manny Pac...
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
These days kids talk about so many things from so many mediums in nearly
every culture.
As mediums expand so does the cross section for youth idols...
newspaper, radio, TV, cable-satelite TV, internet, I-phones...
this all makes a difference...
and like i said above..boxing is becoming less and less relevant
as a 'prime' sport, which to me is damned sad as it really is a
pure sport.
every culture.
As mediums expand so does the cross section for youth idols...
newspaper, radio, TV, cable-satelite TV, internet, I-phones...
this all makes a difference...
and like i said above..boxing is becoming less and less relevant
as a 'prime' sport, which to me is damned sad as it really is a
pure sport.
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
ahem....uh I mean Jaclem....I'm sure you meant to say....HIGHLY intelligible.Jaclem wrote:..my i.q.is so high it's embarassing to comment on...but once again i have no idea of what buzzbuzz is talking about. he asks a question then gives some possible answers and then modifies so much they become intelligible.
However as you see, my scribe and interpreter is here to assist by placing the information in lower case english for those with IQ's barely sufficient to fry an egg.
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
If boxing dies with this generation that's too bad, but life goes on. In this country, cricket is re-surfacing with the arrival of more folks from India and Jamaica. Horse racing is most popular among the new arrivals from China. Football (aka soccer) is the chief distraction of the rest of immigrants to this country. The birth rate among long-time Canadians has flat-lined and our only source of real population growth is from these same immigrants. Boxing is on life-support around here (we sent only one boxer to the Olympics). The sport had a nice run, but it's pretty much game over.
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
Cap wrote:If boxing dies with this generation that's too bad, but life goes on. In this country, cricket is re-surfacing with the arrival of more folks from India and Jamaica. Horse racing is most popular among the new arrivals from China. Football (aka soccer) is the chief distraction of the rest of immigrants to this country. The birth rate among long-time Canadians has flat-lined and our only source of real population growth is from these same immigrants. Boxing is on life-support around here (we sent only one boxer to the Olympics). The sport had a nice run, but it's pretty much game over.
cap....enough with optimism already! Keep Hope Alive!
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TheOneIsHere2008
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1181
- Joined: 01 Jul 2008, 12:09
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
That is sad...Cap wrote:If boxing dies with this generation that's too bad, but life goes on. In this country, cricket is re-surfacing with the arrival of more folks from India and Jamaica. Horse racing is most popular among the new arrivals from China. Football (aka soccer) is the chief distraction of the rest of immigrants to this country. The birth rate among long-time Canadians has flat-lined and our only source of real population growth is from these same immigrants. Boxing is on life-support around here (we sent only one boxer to the Olympics). The sport had a nice run, but it's pretty much game over.
However we have the NBA and the NFL which I love... I used to love the MLB when I was a kid but now not so much...
Right now I'm watching USA own Greece in Olympic basketball...
Boxing is a brutal sport...No boxer or precious few boxers with a lengthy career leaves it the way they entered it... That's why I could have "strangled" the clown that applauded Ali's Parkinson's Syndrome...It's a tough, tough sport... A kid today who is athletically inclined is going to gravitate toward any sport beside boxing unless he is too small and then he might choose boxing by default...
The ironic thing is many retired football players have major health issues but it's not perceived as dangeous as boxing...I guess because folks don't see football players literally hitting one another...
Re: Evolving or Devolving?
Right now, I would sya that boxers have become more skilled, due to the "science" of the sport...
But I also think that stamina (the ability to go on and on and on and keep an opponent under pressure) has faded considerably... As has the magic of a KO, many boxers today (even the top ones) are too willing to win on points, they might win 4 rounds more because they threw more punches (with minimum power in them) or because They landed 4 punches more cleanly than their opponent - at this gives them a 10-9 round.
And lastly, I think because of the number of heavyweight champions... The "I'm the no 1" mentality has wen out-the-window, nowdays, boxers are too willing to just say "I'm a world champion".... But not THE WORLD CHAMPION. (But I guess this comes down to money too).
ALSO, I think that there are far too many divisions in the sport (ecpecially at the lower levels)
But I also think that stamina (the ability to go on and on and on and keep an opponent under pressure) has faded considerably... As has the magic of a KO, many boxers today (even the top ones) are too willing to win on points, they might win 4 rounds more because they threw more punches (with minimum power in them) or because They landed 4 punches more cleanly than their opponent - at this gives them a 10-9 round.
And lastly, I think because of the number of heavyweight champions... The "I'm the no 1" mentality has wen out-the-window, nowdays, boxers are too willing to just say "I'm a world champion".... But not THE WORLD CHAMPION. (But I guess this comes down to money too).
ALSO, I think that there are far too many divisions in the sport (ecpecially at the lower levels)
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
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Re: Evolving or Devolving?
I believe that advances in training methods is overrated. Most of the advances made only make things easier, not better.
For example, there are easier and faster ways to work on your stomach than situps. But guess, what? Situps do work. They gave guys good ab muscles for 100 years.
Maybe there are faster ways to work on your legs and your endurance than running several miles a day. However, that still worked.
A fighter from years ago might have to work longer and harder, but he still could get into as good of shape as a fighter now.
As for technique, there hasn't been a new punch in boxing in more than 90 years.
What fighter today has an effective style that no one has seen before?
People can talk about "advanced" training methods and "advanced" techniques all they want. The What counts is what happens in the ring.
If you just watch the fighters of this ear and of eras past, sometimes the guys from now are better, sometimes they are not. There have been great, good, mediocre and bad fighters in every era. Everyone likes to talk about the heavyweight division. Right now it's horrible. Anyone who knows boxing can see that. However, there is some talent in some of the other weight classes. Overall, this era is probably about the same in quality as other eras.
For example, there are easier and faster ways to work on your stomach than situps. But guess, what? Situps do work. They gave guys good ab muscles for 100 years.
Maybe there are faster ways to work on your legs and your endurance than running several miles a day. However, that still worked.
A fighter from years ago might have to work longer and harder, but he still could get into as good of shape as a fighter now.
As for technique, there hasn't been a new punch in boxing in more than 90 years.
What fighter today has an effective style that no one has seen before?
People can talk about "advanced" training methods and "advanced" techniques all they want. The What counts is what happens in the ring.
If you just watch the fighters of this ear and of eras past, sometimes the guys from now are better, sometimes they are not. There have been great, good, mediocre and bad fighters in every era. Everyone likes to talk about the heavyweight division. Right now it's horrible. Anyone who knows boxing can see that. However, there is some talent in some of the other weight classes. Overall, this era is probably about the same in quality as other eras.