"when we were kings" ... how wrong a view

[man]

i saw the documentary before i saw the full fight. i believe that
"when we were kings" is - intentionally or not - painting a completely
wrong picture of the fight. ali was ahead on all cards i believe and
he had foreman near a knock out at the end of the fifth. ali was in
more or less full control of the fight at any point. and the sequences
of ali against the ropes, leaning back "doing the roperdop" are pretty
rare ...

ali could place his punches at will; almost each and every jab got in.
it was an entertaining fight. but foreman was almost embarrassingly
weak in his defense IMHO.

nevertheless the real end was somehow strange. ali knocked him down
at almost exactly ten seconds before the end of round and foreman
was up at eight. wobbly, but up and with literally no time left in the
round the referee should have given the reigning champ the chance
to recover in the break ... it was a tough decision in my eyes. in my
opinion tougher than taylor-chavez ...

[allworld80]

If Foreman or his camp had put up any protest at the stoppage, I might agree. Foreman was toast. I do agree with Ali being in complete control. George was the raging bull, and Ali the great matador.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

i saw the documentary before i saw the full fight. i believe that
"when we were kings" is - intentionally or not - painting a completely
wrong picture of the fight. ali was ahead on all cards i believe and
he had foreman near a knock out at the end of the fifth. ali was in
more or less full control of the fight at any point. and the sequences
of ali against the ropes, leaning back "doing the roperdop" are pretty
rare ...

ali could place his punches at will; almost each and every jab got in.
it was an entertaining fight. but foreman was almost embarrassingly
weak in his defense IMHO.

nevertheless the real end was somehow strange. ali knocked him down
at almost exactly ten seconds before the end of round and foreman
was up at eight. wobbly, but up and with literally no time left in the
round the referee should have given the reigning champ the chance
to recover in the break ... it was a tough decision in my eyes. in my
opinion tougher than taylor-chavez ...

Never mind the jab...Ali hit Foreman with twelve right hand leads in the first round:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyR7n3A5abo

An amateur should be able to deflect a right hand lead or at least most of them...

And he was winning most of the rounds:

Zach Clayton 4-2-1 Ali, Nourridine Adalla 3-0-4 Ali, and James Taylor 4-1-2 Ali

And if you watch the knock out Ali could have hit George , legally, one more time as he fell:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gok2z-mW ... re=related


There would have been no controversy over the count then but Foreman might have been seriously hurt...Nine out of ten fighters, imho, would have hit Foreman once more...

[Brutu]

Check out the movie MUHAMMAD ALI,THE GREATEST.
Its a documentery about Ali's two fights with Liston and George Foreman.
I thought that movie captured more of a feel of the fight in Zaire,it sort of felt like a a 60 minutes investigation show.

[man]

you are right! each time i see it i love ali for holding back that last shot.
(the one that david tua did not hold back against ruiz.)

[man]

Check out the movie MUHAMMAD ALI,THE GREATEST.
Its a documentery about Ali's two fights with Liston and George Foreman.
I thought that movie captured more of a feel of the fight in Zaire,it sort of felt like a a 60 minutes investigation show.

thnx. i will.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

you are right! each time i see it i love ali for holding back that last shot.
(the one that david tua did not hold back against ruiz.)

Foreman calls it the best punch Muhammad Ali never threw...

[hoodsyeahright]

I have always thought the count was too quick and Foreman was looking to his corner to make sure he got up at the right time.

Wouldn't have made any difference though.

[dajuggernaut]

The fight was on ESPN Classic last week. Foreman was in studio and talking about it. He said something to the degree that Ali was a great gentleman for not hitting him one more time. He was really grateful about that.

About the stoppage: he said at the time of the fight he felt he could come back after the knockout and try to win. The more he watched it and thought about it he realized that if he would of continued that Ali would of battered him some more. That was straight out of Big George's own mouth.

[Robinson]

When I saw it in 1997 I enjoyed it, I was happy to see something
about boxing do well.

I never liked the fact that the showed nothing from Foreman's
side or gave him any spoken time...I suppose the Foreman they
were portraying (menacing, thug like violent force of nature) is
nothing like how the real Foreman would have come across in an
interview.

Something for Ali fans, casual fans and the likes to rally around
and talk about how great Ali was because some writers like Plimpton,
and the likes have an opinion.

Well done production, interesting to know some of the back story (which
today is so overly covered-'Ali', 'Only in America') and was good to
see some of the convert footage.

[man]

The fight was on ESPN Classic last week. Foreman was in studio and talking about it. He said something to the degree that Ali was a great gentleman for not hitting him one more time. He was really grateful about that.

About the stoppage: he said at the time of the fight he felt he could come back after the knockout and try to win. The more he watched it and thought about it he realized that if he would of continued that Ali would of battered him some more. That was straight out of Big George's own mouth.

i am just concerned by the oneSidedNess of things here. everybody was so happy with
ali winning, that nobody asked if the champ was treated fair. and i think he wasn't no
matter if he was to lose later on anyways. at this particular moment the referee could
have done better. just look at foreman-lyle. plenty of opportunity to take one out earlier.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

The fight was on ESPN Classic last week. Foreman was in studio and talking about it. He said something to the degree that Ali was a great gentleman for not hitting him one more time. He was really grateful about that.

About the stoppage: he said at the time of the fight he felt he could come back after the knockout and try to win. The more he watched it and thought about it he realized that if he would of continued that Ali would of battered him some more. That was straight out of Big George's own mouth.

i am just concerned by the oneSidedNess of things here. everybody was so happy with
ali winning, that nobody asked if the champ was treated fair. and i think he wasn't no
matter if he was to lose later on anyways. at this particular moment the referee could
have done better. just look at foreman-lyle. plenty of opportunity to take one out earlier.

Maybe the ref saved Foreman from embarrassment or permanent injury...After he had tired George out, Ali planned to dance around him for a few rounds and pepper him with jabs....

Also, Foreman was down 6-2 with seven rounds to go..He would have needed to win six of the next eight rounds...If you watch the fight closely Foreman was ripe after round five to go...

[allworld80]

I never liked the fact that the showed nothing from Foreman's
side or gave him any spoken time...I suppose the Foreman they
were portraying (menacing, thug like violent force of nature) is
nothing like how the real Foreman would have come across in an
interview.

I've heard both sides of the argument. A lot of people from that time will say the real Foreman is the one that you saw back then. Very ill tempered, angry, and abusive. Foreman himself said in a 60 minutes interview that he was a bad person, and that he was a thug in his younger days. Along with the admittance of hitting women, and so forth. I also think the whole happy go lucky George of today is not an act either. Maturity, religon, or whatever the reason, caused him to change.

[Robinson]

Very true.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I never liked the fact that the showed nothing from Foreman's
side or gave him any spoken time...I suppose the Foreman they
were portraying (menacing, thug like violent force of nature) is
nothing like how the real Foreman would have come across in an
interview.

I've heard both sides of the argument. A lot of people from that time will say the real Foreman is the one that you saw back then. Very ill tempered, angry, and abusive. Foreman himself said in a 60 minutes interview that he was a bad person, and that he was a thug in his younger days. Along with the admittance of hitting women, and so forth. I also think the whole happy go lucky George of today is not an act either. Maturity, religon, or whatever the reason, caused him to change.

Foreman said he had an ephiphany after the Young fight...That he is when he retired and became a minister...

[Robinson]

Foreman like any many is complicated and has many
different characteristics to many different people.

I think Foreman while he always seemed grateful towards
LBJ and his domestic policies, his trainers and handlers...
seemed to feel (and rightly so) that by the boxing people,
he was never treated like a champion....he was treated
like another Ali opponent.

[raylawpc]

I never liked the fact that the showed nothing from Foreman's
side or gave him any spoken time...I suppose the Foreman they
were portraying (menacing, thug like violent force of nature) is
nothing like how the real Foreman would have come across in an
interview.

I've heard both sides of the argument. A lot of people from that time will say the real Foreman is the one that you saw back then. Very ill tempered, angry, and abusive. Foreman himself said in a 60 minutes interview that he was a bad person, and that he was a thug in his younger days. Along with the admittance of hitting women, and so forth. I also think the whole happy go lucky George of today is not an act either. Maturity, religon, or whatever the reason, caused him to change.

I only met him one time, but I remember him as quiet and well mannered. Certainly not a "bad ass."

[raylawpc]

Maybe they didn't show Foreman's side because they didn't want an x rating. Dick Sadler told my friend Pat O'Grady that Foreman did a good amount of his training in the bedroom. He told Pat that they couldn't keep Foreman off the girls. I don't know if it's true, but I know Dick said it.

[observer1]

you are right! each time i see it i love ali for holding back that last shot.
(the one that david tua did not hold back against ruiz.)

Foreman calls it the best punch Muhammad Ali never threw...

Another reason why Ali is a legend,

[overhand_right]

All the quick counts in the world wont diguise the fact Foreman was on his way out against Ali, if he'd of got up Ali would of taken him to the cleaners anyway.

[Robinson]

Maybe they didn't show Foreman's side because they didn't want an x rating. Dick Sadler told my friend Pat O'Grady that Foreman did a good amount of his training in the bedroom. He told Pat that they couldn't keep Foreman off the girls. I don't know if it's true, but I know Dick said it.

From all accounts Ali was himself known as a pants man....
most athletes are...even ultra religious ones like Holyfield.

[man]

All the quick counts in the world wont diguise the fact Foreman was on his way out against Ali, if he'd of got up Ali would of taken him to the cleaners anyway.

i don't dispute that, but i challenge the view of the public,
including the referee. i believe it had been the other way
round and ali would have been counted out like that there
would be riots ... to this day ... (:))

the other thing on foreman having been a bad person, one
must not forget that he came out of poor circumstances and
had become olympic champion and undisputed, "invincible"
heavy weight champion at age 24. that can make you a little
off-ground in many respects.

[man]

Maybe they didn't show Foreman's side because they didn't want an x rating. Dick Sadler told my friend Pat O'Grady that Foreman did a good amount of his training in the bedroom. He told Pat that they couldn't keep Foreman off the girls. I don't know if it's true, but I know Dick said it.

:)

[Knucklez]

Clayton's count was at 9 when Foreman stood up and just wandered off to his corner.

[Robinson]

What made Ali the good guy and Foreman the bad one ?