Who were the best Welsh Boxers?

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 09 Apr 2004, 18:23

Who was the best Welsh boxer?

Jimmy Wilde
Jim Driscoll
Freddie Welsh
Joe Calzaghe
Howard Winstone
Percy Jones
Robbie Regan
Steve Robinson
Johnny Owen
Colin Jones
Tommy Farr
Eddie Thomas

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 10 Apr 2004, 10:04

tonyevs wrote:Who was the best Welsh boxer?

Jimmy Wilde
Jim Driscoll
Freddie Welsh
Joe Calzaghe
Howard Winstone
Percy Jones
Robbie Regan
Steve Robinson
Johnny Owen
Colin Jones
Tommy Farr
Eddie Thomas

Quality list mate and hard to argue with but I shall have a go.

Jimmy Wilde
Jim Driscoll
Freddie Welsh
Howard Winstone
Tommy Farr
Joe Calzaghe
Steve Robinson
Colin Jones
Percy Jones
Johnny Owen
Robbie Regan
Eddie Thomas

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 10 Apr 2004, 11:08

I'd put Driscoll, Wilde, Welsh, Winstone and maybe Calzaghe head and shoulders above the rest.

The following (I think) all won at least British titles, and who knows, if they had fought in an era of multiple World titles like today, may have accomplished a lot more:

Tom Thomas
Johnny Basham
Brian Curvis
Ronnie James
Jack Petersen
Dai Dower
Joe Erskine
Dick Richardson

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 10 Apr 2004, 11:25

lamphey wrote:I'd put Driscoll, Wilde, Welsh, Winstone and maybe Calzaghe head and shoulders above the rest.

I take your point with Calzaghe, but I am still holding back on my judgment on him somewhat untill his career is over.

Now as for Jimmy Wilde, now there was a truely great fighter, one of my personal favourites. My Grandfathers uncle was a friend of Wildes and sometimes used to train with him.

Although my Gandfathers Boxing hero has always been Tommy Farr.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 10 Apr 2004, 14:51

You've all forgotton Don Cockerill. Anyway, here what I'd call the top 16.

1Jimmy Wilde
2Jim Driscoll
3Freddie Welsh

4Howard Winstone
5Tommy Farr
6Steve Robinson
7Colin Jones
8Joe Calzaghe

9 Robbie Regan
10 Joe Erskine
11 Eddie Thomas
12 Dick Richardson
13 Dai Dower
14 Percy Jones

15 Don Cockerill
16 Johnny Owen

Others worthy of a mention (that haven't already)
Nicky Piper, Floyd Harvard, Robert Dickie, Barry Jones.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 10 Apr 2004, 16:15

Interesting to see you rate Steve Robinson higher than Calzaghe.
I did think hard about adding Harvard and Dickie because both were excellent boxers who just happened to have bad luck on their side.

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 10 Apr 2004, 16:55

stujones wrote:You've all forgotton Don Cockerill.

Stu, who is Don Cockerill?

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 10 Apr 2004, 18:59

does he mean don cockell of marciano fame?
i thought he was a cockney!!
i could be wrong though.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 10 Apr 2004, 19:25

tonyevs wrote:Interesting to see you rate Steve Robinson higher than Calzaghe.
I did think hard about adding Harvard and Dickie because both were excellent boxers who just happened to have bad luck on their side.

I just think whilst Calzaghe has made 7 more title defence, many of these weren't worthy of contesting for a world title (Mger Mkrtchian, Tocker Pudwill, Miguel Jimenez, Will McIntyre, Rick Thornberry, Juan Carlos Giménez, Branko Sobot). Others were on the borderline (Mario Veit, Omar Sheika). So that leaves Byron Mitchell, Charles Brewer, Richie Woodhall, David Starie, Robin Reid, and Chris Eubank as good challengers. Steve Robinson's reign, whilst shorter, is equally as good if you look at the meaningful fights he had - Sean Murphy was the reigning Commonwealth champion and he was probably Steve's worst opponent.

If Calzaghe beats Johnson he go above Robinson though.

As for Cockell, yes I was talking about the famed heavyweight who challenged Marciano. However, it looks like the book I have read claiming he's Welsh is all wrong - seems like he's from Battersea.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 10 Apr 2004, 19:33

Yes, Cockell was from Battersea confirmed. The book I read claimed that he beat Farr for the Welsh heavyweight championship in Farr's last fight - he did beat Farr on his final fight and Farr was the reigning Welsh champion, but the belt wasn't on the line - cause Cockell isn't Welsh.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 11 Apr 2004, 13:10

I do not want to sound too disrespectful of what Steve Robinson did, but… the quality names on his record were all quite shop worn to say the least, except Naz.
He did excellent after the Davison fight, but Davison his-self had had one too many hard fights. The Hoko fight I would class as his over-all best achievement.
And Sean Murphy was quite basic, whilst exciting to watch.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 11 Apr 2004, 16:50

tonyevs wrote:I do not want to sound too disrespectful of what Steve Robinson did, but… the quality names on his record were all quite shop worn to say the least, except Naz.
He did excellent after the Davison fight, but Davison his-self had had one too many hard fights. The Hoko fight I would class as his over-all best achievement.
And Sean Murphy was quite basic, whilst exciting to watch.

Okay toneyevs, but out of the list of good fighters I said for Calzaghe - how many of them were shop worn or the fight took place or at times when the fighters were going through a bad patch.

Byron Mitchell, Charles Brewer, Richie Woodhall, David Starie, Robin Reid, and Chris Eubank

These are what I consider Calzaghe's only worthy opponents.

Byron Mitchell was coming off a defeat and looked poor in the fight before Ottke.

Charles Brewer = faded.

Richie Woodhall = faded, lacked self-belief.

Robin Reid = good opponent, but lost to Sugar Boy Malinga and went on to lose to Branco.

Chris Eubank = weight drained, ring rusty, faded

David Starie = exposed by Francis.

Yes, Robinson's opponent may have been coming to the end but MacMillan went on to reclaim the British title, was only in his early/mid 20's when Steve fought him.

Hodkinson = yes, perhaps he was on the way down but was considered one of the very best Feathers when the devision was going through a purple patch of class fighters.

Duke McKenzie was a 3 weight world champion and was going through a good spell at Feather, he went on to fight at a similar level for a few years after.

Freddy Cruz - was still ambitious at that time and gave Wilfredo Vasquez (a pre 30 Vasquez!) a tough fight a year a so before the challenge (Majority decision).

His last two title defence were against relatively unkown opponents who didn't warrant a shot, but these guys were young and had good records.

Its close, I just think Robinson was 1993-1995 was a golden era for British and World Featherweight boxing. The likes of Vargas, Kelly, Espinosa, Medina, and a host of others made it good. Britain at one stage it could be argued had 4 guys who could mix with the very best of the these (Robinson, McKenzie, Hokko, and McMillan). Robinson was the best of this bunch.

Calzaghe came a little too late, I mean a 38 year old Herol Graham was two rounds away from beating one of Calzaghe's best victims. If Joe proved himself against a Prime Collins, Eubank and Benn then it would be different. However, Robin Reid was not in their league and Woodhall was a bulked up Middle.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 12 Apr 2004, 16:55

To say our four featherweights (Robinson, McKenzie, Hoko and McMillan) could have competed with the top featherweights of the time from across the water is being a little generous to say the least.
Hoko beat a very old Villasana to win the title, and then got blown away by Goyo Vargas, who then lost it himself in his next fight to the excellent Kevin Kelly; Hoko was out for a year before fighting Robbo in his first fight back and he just was not the same fighter.
McMillan got beat by Palacio dislocating his shoulder, which needed surgery, and he stayed out of the ring for a year before he came straight back to fight Robbo, without taking too much from Robbo again, it was evident Colin was not comfortable with the shoulder.
McKenzie will never be remembered for what he did as a featherweight; I think the only featherweight he beat of any real standing was Davison who had previously lost to Robbo, Davison if I recall, fought his best as a super-bantam, I may be wrong. Though I am confident in saying he aged overnight in the Robinson fight, how he came apart all of a sudden was unreal, he had always been as tough as old boots.
The four foreign featherweights listed would have blown away the best we had at that time, Naz had a nightmare against Medina and Kelly some years later and I personally think the four in their prime 93-95 would have beaten a peak Naz very easily.

Calzaghe still has quite a bit to prove, though I do think he deserves a higher rating.
Brewer beat Pemberton in his next fight after Joe and Pemberton showed his worth beating Sheika, so I would not class Brewer as being that over the hill, and Eubank gave Thompson two hard fights after his fight with Calzaghe.
I would agree that Benn etc should be remembered higher than Calzaghe at this moment in time, but lets just hope Calzaghe does something about that in the near future..

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Apr 2004, 17:41

Its an arguement that I don't think we will settle, but lets not forget Brewer nearly lost to a 38 year old Graham (which indicates his ability in his prime) and also was coming off a KO defeat vs Echols (a fighter who campaigned at Middle for most of his career).

Chris Eubank fought Calzaghe with 5 days notice and was originally to fight at Light Heavy vs Mark Prince. He also hadn't fought a meaningful fight (apart for 2 "exhibitions" in Egypt) for over 2 years. Hardly excellent preparation. Check out that fight and see Eubank's accuracy, Calzaghe isn't Mr hard to hit but Eubank was missing wildy.

It has been argued that Eubank was never the same fighter after the Watson rematch, I think the two Carl Thompson fights, showed that the killer edge left him after the Watson fight.

As for Robinson's opponents, your right McKenzie will not be known for his feather exploits, because Robinson beat him. Yes, Davidson was the three time world champion's best win at 126 but he did come very close to beating Mehdi Labdouni who was a very decent European champion. The Robinson vs Davidson fight was a close one which could have gone either way. Yes, Davidson looked shot vs McKenzie, I think the Robinson fight aged him but it was probably Robinson's hardest fight. Davidson never fought at Super Bantam.

What I am saying that your arguments against Robinson's opponents (McMillan and Hodkingson coming off defeats to go straight back against Robinson) could be argued with Calzaghe (Brewer, Mitchell, Eubank - essentially)

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 13 Apr 2004, 08:25

stujones wrote:It has been argued that Eubank was never the same fighter after the Watson rematch, I think the two Carl Thompson fights, showed that the killer edge left him after the Watson fight.

Davidson never fought at Super Bantam. )

I think Eubanks 'killer edge' left way before the Thompson fights, I was at Eubanks 1992 fight against Suger Boy Malinga in Birminham. Eubank had Malinga in all sorts of trouble in, I think the 5th, Malinga even hit the canvas, but like in the Thompson fights Eubanks seemed very reluctant to finish his opponent which is totally understanable.

With reference to Davidson I'm sure he did fight at Super Bantam, what I am positive about I recall seeing him being interviewed (may have been after the Robinson fight) that he could make Super Bantam.

By the way good debate Stujones & Tonyevs.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 13 Apr 2004, 11:29

KOJOE90 wrote:
stujones wrote:It has been argued that Eubank was never the same fighter after the Watson rematch, I think the two Carl Thompson fights, showed that the killer edge left him after the Watson fight.

Davidson never fought at Super Bantam. )
I think Eubanks 'killer edge' left way before the Thompson fights, I was at Eubanks 1992 fight against Suger Boy Malinga in Birminham. Eubank had Malinga in all sorts of trouble in, I think the 5th, Malinga even hit the canvas, but like in the Thompson fights Eubanks seemed very reluctant to finish his opponent which is totally understanable.

With reference to Davidson I'm sure he did fight at Super Bantam, what I am positive about I recall seeing him being interviewed (may have been after the Robinson fight) that he could make Super Bantam.

By the way good debate Stujones & Tonyevs.

Well, according to Boxrec he fought between 125-127 pounds, never under 122. He won the WBC (I think) international featherweight championship and did call out Hokko on a few occasions.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 13 Apr 2004, 14:51

stujones wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:
stujones wrote:It has been argued that Eubank was never the same fighter after the Watson rematch, I think the two Carl Thompson fights, showed that the killer edge left him after the Watson fight.

Davidson never fought at Super Bantam. )
I think Eubanks 'killer edge' left way before the Thompson fights, I was at Eubanks 1992 fight against Suger Boy Malinga in Birminham. Eubank had Malinga in all sorts of trouble in, I think the 5th, Malinga even hit the canvas, but like in the Thompson fights Eubanks seemed very reluctant to finish his opponent which is totally understanable.

With reference to Davidson I'm sure he did fight at Super Bantam, what I am positive about I recall seeing him being interviewed (may have been after the Robinson fight) that he could make Super Bantam.

By the way good debate Stujones & Tonyevs.
Well, according to Boxrec he fought between 125-127 pounds, never under 122. He won the WBC (I think) international featherweight championship and did call out Hokko on a few occasions.

I know I had a look at his record myself before making the above post, but something still tells me he fought at Super Bantam. 8)

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 13 Apr 2004, 15:00

John Davison held the WBC international Super-Bantam title, he won it in October 1991, his weight was 8stone 9lb and one quarter, and he would have fought for the world title at this weight against Jesse Benevides but for lack of backing from the TV companies, quite unbelievable because Davison was a fantastic crowd pleasing fighter, all heart and guts, he won the aforementioned title from a teak tough 19yr old Thai, even a fractured jaw sustained quite early in the fight did not stop Davison fighting his usual gutsy determined fight.
Sadly the Davison that fought Robinson was a different one from what people knew, he really did age over night in that fight, and seemed to wobble from almost every punch, the old Davison would not of noticed even the best of them a year or so before.
Getting back to the original subject, we will just have to agree to disagree.
John Davison as you probably have guessed was a big, big favourite of mine, a real warrior.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 13 Apr 2004, 15:03

tonyevs wrote:John Davison held the WBC international Super-Bantam title, he won it in October 1991, his weight was 8stone 9lb and one quarter, and he would have fought for the world title at this weight against Jesse Benevides but for lack of backing from the TV companies, quite unbelievable because Davison was a fantastic crowd pleasing fighter, all heart and guts, he won the aforementioned title from a teak tough 19yr old Thai, even a fractured jaw sustained quite early in the fight did not stop Davison fighting his usual gutsy determined fight.
Sadly the Davison that fought Robinson was a different one from what people knew, he really did age over night in that fight, and seemed to wobble from almost every punch, the old Davison would not of noticed even the best of them a year or so before.
Getting back to the original subject, we will just have to agree to disagree.
John Davison as you probably have guessed was a big, big favourite of mine, a real warrior.

Cheers mate, I knew I'd seen him at Super-Bantam!

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 13 Apr 2004, 15:21

I was 99% he fought Super-bantam as first choice but this weight was not recognised in this country yet.
I remember him fighting the Frenchman Benichou for the European title, he got robbed, and he said after he wasn’t a full featherweight.
Though I must admit I checked through my old issues of BN to be certain…

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 13 Apr 2004, 15:30

tonyevs wrote: I remember him fighting the Frenchman Benichou for the European title, he got robbed, and he said after he wasn’t a full featherweight.
…

Yes I'ts all coming back to me now, cheers!

I knew I was right but didn't have the facts at hand to back up my thoughts.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 17 Apr 2004, 08:44

Thursday 22/04/04 3.30am Channle 5

Steve Robinson Vs John Davidson.

According to my TV guide anyway.

Petu v.d. Pajm · Post by **Petu v.d. Pajm** » 20 Apr 2004, 17:20

I just wonder how no one has yet mentioned the incomparable Miguel Matthews in this list???

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Apr 2004, 14:00

KOJOE90 wrote:Thursday 22/04/04 3.30am Channle 5

Steve Robinson Vs John Davidson.

According to my TV guide anyway.

Did anybody catch this - what a good fight it was. John Davidson put up a good effort and did't crumble ala his fight vs Duke McKenzie. It was razor tight - but the verdict was justified.

If Robinson would have had the time to prepare it would have been a clear UD though, started to tire from 8-11, but had a massive 12th to seal it.

Classic post fight interview - really funny

"Im a fit boy me, like" Robinson in cardiff accent.

Also what Gary Newbon was thinging when Stevo said "Can you repeat it again, can you repeat it again". It one worth listening to.

Who were the best Welsh Boxers?

Who were the best Welsh Boxers?

Re: Who were the best Welsh Boxers?