"when we were kings" ... how wrong a view

[raylawpc]

What made Ali the good guy and Foreman the bad one ?

Don't ask me. I was yelling my head off at the closed-circuit screen for Foreman.

I think a lot of this "good guy," "bad guy" stuff is nostalgia. I don't remember that many people - especially people in boxing - who adored Muhammad Ali. I don't remember people in the early 70s referring to Foreman as a thug, either.

[Bobbin & Weavin]

What made Ali the good guy and Foreman the bad one ?

Don't ask me. I was yelling my head off at the closed-circuit screen for Foreman.

I think a lot of this "good guy," "bad guy" stuff is nostalgia. I don't remember that many people - especially people in boxing - who adored Muhammad Ali. I don't remember people in the early 70s referring to Foreman as a thug, either.

I crossed paths with Big Geo. many times in the early 70s training in Newman's & Herman's gym in S.F. the biggest problem Sadler had with George was to get him to stop messing around with us younger guys & get his workout started; once the workout started you better have stayed out of the way. Maybe it was becasue George was in a "safe zone" being in a boxing gym maybe not but he was always very nice to me, my brother & our dad who he didn't know by name but always made a point to nod at us & chat it up a bit. Though I was training there I was a young teen & he didn't have to be nice to us. I have a lot of great pictures of him boxing there and in his training camp in the East Bay for the Ali fight. They are in negitive form but after I get them printed I will post some.
Bobbin & Weavin in
Nor-Cal

[Robinson]

Ive never heard any one say that George did anything super nasty..
apart from what George himself said he would do as a youth, with
his childhood theaving, muggings and the likes much like a Floyd
Patterson, Mike Tyson and the likes did as kids...

OH and his cheating on his wife, which seems to George being the
worse thing ever....

I think to many Foreman was the bad guy because he was pro-
establishment...he waved the US flag at the 1968 games (how many
in the left did this upset), he stayed away from topical debates,
he rarely had an opinion outside of boxing and he was greatful for
the oppurtunities that LBJ's domestic policies afforded him...

Perhaps that made him a bad man much the same way that Frazier
is often depicted leading up to his 1971 victory.

When We Were Kings' while a great production and with some good
scenes to it....is very slanted and tells a specific view of the fight.

[man]

Clayton's count was at 9 when Foreman stood up and just wandered off to his corner.

that is what i meant. plus it was the champ, plus he was going forward
all the time and though he was punching himself out, there was no
indication, that he was in danger of physical damage. there were no
series of hard punches he had to absorb. he was just outgassed. do
not get me wrong. i do not think at all that he could have had chance
to win that fight, since ali was not shaken by anything foreman had to
give in all the previous rounds. but after forty winning bouts the champ
deserves better.

[man]

When We Were Kings' while a great production and with some good
scenes to it....is very slanted and tells a specific view of the fight.

i was disappointed especially by norman mailer, who should know
better and had no reason to say anything he did not believe in. plus
in the movie mailer says that "the nightmare would visit him" and this
kind of thing. it is in the mide here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N44vdCqI7LI

i have not double checked, but i believe that the shot of ali standing was
from a later round, not after the first. but that is documentaries ... :).

additional comment on the right hand leads. i had the feeling that they
were not typcial right hand leads in the sense as mailer talks about in
the clip above. ali was standing square, if not slightly southpaw. at least
on some right hand leads. look at 3:02. this was not an easy-to-see right
hand lead, i believe. do not get me wrong again. ali was great and did great
in this fight. but the documentary blows up certain stuff and when mailer says
at 6:35 that foreman was killing a very weak ali ... that must have seen a
different fight. plus ali did not go to the ropes that early ...

any case. as i said earlier i found the documentary so thrilling and then i
was really disappointed seeing a very different story when watching the
whole fight. actually i find the ending so controversial that it would have
lead to an immediate rematch if it had not been ali and his talk ... .

foreman deserved a rematch. though i think ali would have won again.

[man]

What made Ali the good guy and Foreman the bad one ?

ali was big mouth, but with enough irony to make him appear
nice. i think it was that combination. big mouth. laughin' about
himself as well. and in fact that is very funny, nice and rare ...

[Robinson]

When We Were Kings' while a great production and with some good
scenes to it....is very slanted and tells a specific view of the fight.

i was disappointed especially by norman mailer, who should know
better and had no reason to say anything he did not believe in. plus
in the movie mailer says that "the nightmare would visit him" and this
kind of thing. it is in the mide here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N44vdCqI7LI

i have not double checked, but i believe that the shot of ali standing was
from a later round, not after the first. but that is documentaries ... :).

additional comment on the right hand leads. i had the feeling that they
were not typcial right hand leads in the sense as mailer talks about in
the clip above. ali was standing square, if not slightly southpaw. at least
on some right hand leads. look at 3:02. this was not an easy-to-see right
hand lead, i believe. do not get me wrong again. ali was great and did great
in this fight. but the documentary blows up certain stuff and when mailer says
at 6:35 that foreman was killing a very weak ali ... that must have seen a
different fight. plus ali did not go to the ropes that early ...

any case. as i said earlier i found the documentary so thrilling and then i
was really disappointed seeing a very different story when watching the
whole fight. actually i find the ending so controversial that it would have
lead to an immediate rematch if it had not been ali and his talk ... .

foreman deserved a rematch. though i think ali would have won again.

It always annoyed me that they have the wanky opinions of these writers...
I mean really...George Plimpton...Norman Mailer...what real opinion should
they have...

I think if the rematch happened under neutral circumsrances, in the USA
Foreman has a good chance at winning his title back.

[Collins2000]

When We Were Kings' while a great production and with some good
scenes to it....is very slanted and tells a specific view of the fight.

i was disappointed especially by norman mailer, who should know
better and had no reason to say anything he did not believe in. plus
in the movie mailer says that "the nightmare would visit him" and this
kind of thing. it is in the mide here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N44vdCqI7LI

i have not double checked, but i believe that the shot of ali standing was
from a later round, not after the first. but that is documentaries ... :).

additional comment on the right hand leads. i had the feeling that they
were not typcial right hand leads in the sense as mailer talks about in
the clip above. ali was standing square, if not slightly southpaw. at least
on some right hand leads. look at 3:02. this was not an easy-to-see right
hand lead, i believe. do not get me wrong again. ali was great and did great
in this fight. but the documentary blows up certain stuff and when mailer says
at 6:35 that foreman was killing a very weak ali ... that must have seen a
different fight. plus ali did not go to the ropes that early ...

any case. as i said earlier i found the documentary so thrilling and then i
was really disappointed seeing a very different story when watching the
whole fight. actually i find the ending so controversial that it would have
lead to an immediate rematch if it had not been ali and his talk ... .

foreman deserved a rematch. though i think ali would have won again.

It always annoyed me that they have the wanky opinions of these writers...
I mean really...George Plimpton...Norman Mailer...what real opinion should
they have...

I think if the rematch happened under neutral circumsrances, in the USA
Foreman has a good chance at winning his title back.

No chance, Kym.

Ali beat his ass fair and square. Took an undefeated champ who the 'experts' claimed was going to destroy Ali and stood him on his head.

George knows that too.

Let's leave the revisionism to You Know Who.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

When We Were Kings' while a great production and with some good
scenes to it....is very slanted and tells a specific view of the fight.

i was disappointed especially by norman mailer, who should know
better and had no reason to say anything he did not believe in. plus
in the movie mailer says that "the nightmare would visit him" and this
kind of thing. it is in the mide here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N44vdCqI7LI

i have not double checked, but i believe that the shot of ali standing was
from a later round, not after the first. but that is documentaries ... :).

additional comment on the right hand leads. i had the feeling that they
were not typcial right hand leads in the sense as mailer talks about in
the clip above. ali was standing square, if not slightly southpaw. at least
on some right hand leads. look at 3:02. this was not an easy-to-see right
hand lead, i believe. do not get me wrong again. ali was great and did great
in this fight. but the documentary blows up certain stuff and when mailer says
at 6:35 that foreman was killing a very weak ali ... that must have seen a
different fight. plus ali did not go to the ropes that early ...

any case. as i said earlier i found the documentary so thrilling and then i
was really disappointed seeing a very different story when watching the
whole fight. actually i find the ending so controversial that it would have
lead to an immediate rematch if it had not been ali and his talk ... .

foreman deserved a rematch. though i think ali would have won again.

It always annoyed me that they have the wanky opinions of these writers...
I mean really...George Plimpton...Norman Mailer...what real opinion should
they have...

I think if the rematch happened under neutral circumsrances, in the USA
Foreman has a good chance at winning his title back.

Why wasn't it a neutral site?

Was not Africa George Foreman's ancestral homeland too?

[Ezzard]

Agree with the sentiment of the original post...

IMO Ali beat him fairly easily. Never seemed in trouble. Rarely missing a shot.

Foreman (like all the big KO punchers) seemed to pay the price for believing his own hype, and possibly believing himself to be indestructible. Ali's chin, smothering and sheer determination took it all away from George who pushed along with plan A regardless.

I have ehard people say that the count was wrong, end of the round, etc... I checked and it seems that way but it's hard to imagine George turning it around Frazier style and getting back into the fight.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Agree with the sentiment of the original post...

IMO Ali beat him fairly easily. Never seemed in trouble. Rarely missing a shot.

Foreman (like all the big KO punchers) seemed to pay the price for believing his own hype, and possibly believing himself to be indestructible. Ali's chin, smothering and sheer determination took it all away from George who pushed along with plan A regardless.

I have ehard people say that the count was wrong, end of the round, etc... I checked and it seems that way but it's hard to imagine George turning it around Frazier style and getting back into the fight.

I don't think Ali ever had Frazier in that much trouble...We learned in retrospect that Ali had nearly blinded him in Manila but George was "out"...If he would have hit one more time as he was going down the results might have been catastrophic...


I admire and respect Big George...I also admire and respect Muhammad Ali...Foreman had some of the smartest boxing men in his corner like Sandy Sadler and Archie Moore...He ignored them... They told him all he was doing was hitting Ali's arms...Foreman thought if they hit them hard enough he would break Ali's arm like he did to Gregorio Peralta... Archie Moore summarized Ali's rope a dope beautifully:

Archie Moore had a more sanguine view. He pointed out that the champion did not really have Ali on the ropes. Ali had placed himself there, which was quite different, and thus he was in the tradition of the great "rope fighters" like Young Jack Thompson, a welterweight champion of the '20s who used the ropes with the skill of a spider on the strands of his web.

Moore cleared his throat. He is extravagant not only polysyllabically but in the use of metaphor, and he had one to offer. " Ali swayed so far back on the ropes that it was like he was sitting in an old convertible Cadillac. The '54 model," he added, being very accurate about such things. "Now, George tried to enter from the side doors. But they were shut. So George began to bang at them, hitting at Ali 's arms that had the elbows protecting his hips, on up to the gloves protecting the lower mandible. On occasion George struck Ali some tremendous blows on the upper cranium, causing Ali no little discomfiture. But Ali weathered that, and he cunningly convinced George that he couldn't punch and other such nonsensical things, until George began to behave like he actually believed it, until this tremendous puncher lost his power from punching at that Cadillac's doors and turned from an atomic force into a firecracker. "In short," said the great ex-fighter, "as they say in the idiom of Brooklyn , he blew his cool."

In the days after the fight, when his senses had fully returned, Foreman himself offered no excuses. "If you go out rabbit hunting," he said, "and you're a poor man, and all you got is a rifle, and a table, and a family at home...and out in the field there's a rabbit—Bam!—and you miss, it don't do no good to come with excuses to put on the table."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

One of our friends suggested George Plimpton couldn't write or write well...I suggest he reads some of his work...

[man]

... Ali's chin, smothering and sheer determination took it all away from George who pushed along with plan A regardless.

I have ehard people say that the count was wrong, end of the round, etc... I checked and it seems that way but it's hard to imagine George turning it around Frazier style and getting back into the fight.

yeah. i think ali's chin had a lot to do with foreman becoming desperate.
i mean from "invincible" to "you're not hitting hard enough, george!" is quite
a distance to handle for 24 year old within minutes. i was even more astounded
by his waist, because foreman really hit him there. it did not affect him at
all ... at least it didn't look like that.

it is a weird fight. i personally like ali a lot, but making a crowd of thousands of
people yell "KILL him!" ... well, it is still sports. it is not about killing as far as i know.
i believe ali was so charming that he got away with all that. just imagine tyson had
done something like that ... or: foreman.

and "when we were kings" is good as a film, but fails miserably as a documentary.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

... Ali's chin, smothering and sheer determination took it all away from George who pushed along with plan A regardless.

I have ehard people say that the count was wrong, end of the round, etc... I checked and it seems that way but it's hard to imagine George turning it around Frazier style and getting back into the fight.

yeah. i think ali's chin had a lot to do with foreman becoming desperate.
i mean from "invincible" to "you're not hitting hard enough, george!" is quite
a distance to handle for 24 year old within minutes. i was even more astounded
by his waist, because foreman really hit him there. it did not affect him at
all ... at least it didn't look like that.

it is a weird fight. i personally like ali a lot, but making a crowd of thousands of
people yell "KILL him!" ... well, it is still sports. it is not about killing as far as i know.
i believe ali was so charming that he got away with all that. just imagine tyson had
done something like that ... or: foreman.

and "when we were kings" is good as a film, but fails miserably as a documentary.

"Kill him", of course wasn't meant to be taken literally...If Ali wanted to "kill him" he should have got his last punch in...I'm sure Mike Tyson would have...

[Ezzard]

Agree with the sentiment of the original post...

IMO Ali beat him fairly easily. Never seemed in trouble. Rarely missing a shot.

Foreman (like all the big KO punchers) seemed to pay the price for believing his own hype, and possibly believing himself to be indestructible. Ali's chin, smothering and sheer determination took it all away from George who pushed along with plan A regardless.

I have ehard people say that the count was wrong, end of the round, etc... I checked and it seems that way but it's hard to imagine George turning it around Frazier style and getting back into the fight.

I don't think Ali ever had Frazier in that much trouble...We learned in retrospect that Ali had nearly blinded him in Manila but George was "out"...If he would have hit one more time as he was going down the results might have been catastrophic...


I admire and respect Big George...I also admire and respect Muhammad Ali...Foreman had some of the smartest boxing men in his corner like Sandy Sadler and Archie Moore...He ignored them... They told him all he was doing was hitting Ali's arms...Foreman thought if they hit them hard enough he would break Ali's arm like he did to Gregorio Peralta... Archie Moore summarized Ali's rope a dope beautifully:

Archie Moore had a more sanguine view. He pointed out that the champion did not really have Ali on the ropes. Ali had placed himself there, which was quite different, and thus he was in the tradition of the great "rope fighters" like Young Jack Thompson, a welterweight champion of the '20s who used the ropes with the skill of a spider on the strands of his web.

Moore cleared his throat. He is extravagant not only polysyllabically but in the use of metaphor, and he had one to offer. " Ali swayed so far back on the ropes that it was like he was sitting in an old convertible Cadillac. The '54 model," he added, being very accurate about such things. "Now, George tried to enter from the side doors. But they were shut. So George began to bang at them, hitting at Ali 's arms that had the elbows protecting his hips, on up to the gloves protecting the lower mandible. On occasion George struck Ali some tremendous blows on the upper cranium, causing Ali no little discomfiture. But Ali weathered that, and he cunningly convinced George that he couldn't punch and other such nonsensical things, until George began to behave like he actually believed it, until this tremendous puncher lost his power from punching at that Cadillac's doors and turned from an atomic force into a firecracker. "In short," said the great ex-fighter, "as they say in the idiom of Brooklyn , he blew his cool."

In the days after the fight, when his senses had fully returned, Foreman himself offered no excuses. "If you go out rabbit hunting," he said, "and you're a poor man, and all you got is a rifle, and a table, and a family at home...and out in the field there's a rabbit—Bam!—and you miss, it don't do no good to come with excuses to put on the table."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

One of our friends suggested George Plimpton couldn't write or write well...I suggest he reads some of his work...

Thanks for that, much appreciated...

Agree on Plimpton... He could write as could Mailer. Okay, they were not boxing greats but they wrote about the sport in a way that captured the public's imagination. They also did a lot of very good non-boxing related work.

[Ezzard]

... Ali's chin, smothering and sheer determination took it all away from George who pushed along with plan A regardless.

I have ehard people say that the count was wrong, end of the round, etc... I checked and it seems that way but it's hard to imagine George turning it around Frazier style and getting back into the fight.

yeah. i think ali's chin had a lot to do with foreman becoming desperate.
i mean from "invincible" to "you're not hitting hard enough, george!" is quite
a distance to handle for 24 year old within minutes. i was even more astounded
by his waist, because foreman really hit him there. it did not affect him at
all ... at least it didn't look like that.

it is a weird fight. i personally like ali a lot, but making a crowd of thousands of
people yell "KILL him!" ... well, it is still sports. it is not about killing as far as i know.
i believe ali was so charming that he got away with all that. just imagine tyson had
done something like that ... or: foreman.

and "when we were kings" is good as a film, but fails miserably as a documentary.

Like Liston before him Foreman came in on a laod of hype and few competitive rounds under his belt. Then he came up against a great fighter who was not going to be blown away. He shattered mentally...

[Ezzard]

What made Ali the good guy and Foreman the bad one ?

Don't ask me. I was yelling my head off at the closed-circuit screen for Foreman.

I think a lot of this "good guy," "bad guy" stuff is nostalgia. I don't remember that many people - especially people in boxing - who adored Muhammad Ali. I don't remember people in the early 70s referring to Foreman as a thug, either.

I crossed paths with Big Geo. many times in the early 70s training in Newman's & Herman's gym in S.F. the biggest problem Sadler had with George was to get him to stop messing around with us younger guys & get his workout started; once the workout started you better have stayed out of the way. Maybe it was becasue George was in a "safe zone" being in a boxing gym maybe not but he was always very nice to me, my brother & our dad who he didn't know by name but always made a point to nod at us & chat it up a bit. Though I was training there I was a young teen & he didn't have to be nice to us. I have a lot of great pictures of him boxing there and in his training camp in the East Bay for the Ali fight. They are in negitive form but after I get them printed I will post some.
Bobbin & Weavin in
Nor-Cal

Wow!!! Great experience for you to share with us, Bobbin. Hope you do post the pics...

[man]

"Kill him", of course wasn't meant to be taken literally...If Ali wanted to "kill him" he should have got his last punch in...I'm sure Mike Tyson would have...

nevertheless. it is not really sportsmen-like, is it? but that is the thing,
ali was the only one who could get away with this. i mean, see it from
perspective, a professional fighter makes the crowd yell like that. in
ali's case it seems natural, almost part of the whole setting - because
ali decided so.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

"Kill him", of course wasn't meant to be taken literally...If Ali wanted to "kill him" he should have got his last punch in...I'm sure Mike Tyson would have...

nevertheless. it is not really sportsmen-like, is it? but that is the thing,
ali was the only one who could get away with this. i mean, see it from
perspective, a professional fighter makes the crowd yell like that. in
ali's case it seems natural, almost part of the whole setting - because
ali decided so.

They started yelling it the moment he arrived in Zaire...I'm sure Ali didn't speak Lingala...And if Ali was losing the fight I don't think they would have yelled it...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Agree with the sentiment of the original post...

IMO Ali beat him fairly easily. Never seemed in trouble. Rarely missing a shot.

Foreman (like all the big KO punchers) seemed to pay the price for believing his own hype, and possibly believing himself to be indestructible. Ali's chin, smothering and sheer determination took it all away from George who pushed along with plan A regardless.

I have ehard people say that the count was wrong, end of the round, etc... I checked and it seems that way but it's hard to imagine George turning it around Frazier style and getting back into the fight.

I don't think Ali ever had Frazier in that much trouble...We learned in retrospect that Ali had nearly blinded him in Manila but George was "out"...If he would have hit one more time as he was going down the results might have been catastrophic...


I admire and respect Big George...I also admire and respect Muhammad Ali...Foreman had some of the smartest boxing men in his corner like Sandy Sadler and Archie Moore...He ignored them... They told him all he was doing was hitting Ali's arms...Foreman thought if they hit them hard enough he would break Ali's arm like he did to Gregorio Peralta... Archie Moore summarized Ali's rope a dope beautifully:

Archie Moore had a more sanguine view. He pointed out that the champion did not really have Ali on the ropes. Ali had placed himself there, which was quite different, and thus he was in the tradition of the great "rope fighters" like Young Jack Thompson, a welterweight champion of the '20s who used the ropes with the skill of a spider on the strands of his web.

Moore cleared his throat. He is extravagant not only polysyllabically but in the use of metaphor, and he had one to offer. " Ali swayed so far back on the ropes that it was like he was sitting in an old convertible Cadillac. The '54 model," he added, being very accurate about such things. "Now, George tried to enter from the side doors. But they were shut. So George began to bang at them, hitting at Ali 's arms that had the elbows protecting his hips, on up to the gloves protecting the lower mandible. On occasion George struck Ali some tremendous blows on the upper cranium, causing Ali no little discomfiture. But Ali weathered that, and he cunningly convinced George that he couldn't punch and other such nonsensical things, until George began to behave like he actually believed it, until this tremendous puncher lost his power from punching at that Cadillac's doors and turned from an atomic force into a firecracker. "In short," said the great ex-fighter, "as they say in the idiom of Brooklyn , he blew his cool."

In the days after the fight, when his senses had fully returned, Foreman himself offered no excuses. "If you go out rabbit hunting," he said, "and you're a poor man, and all you got is a rifle, and a table, and a family at home...and out in the field there's a rabbit—Bam!—and you miss, it don't do no good to come with excuses to put on the table."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ ... /index.htm

One of our friends suggested George Plimpton couldn't write or write well...I suggest he reads some of his work...

Thanks for that, much appreciated...

Agree on Plimpton... He could write as could Mailer. Okay, they were not boxing greats but they wrote about the sport in a way that captured the public's imagination. They also did a lot of very good non-boxing related work.

Plimpton, was of course primarily a sportswriter...It wasn't as if he covered Broadway all his life and this was his first athletic event...Mailer was Mailer but he had some great works under his belt and he loved boxing, watched a lot of boxing, and even boxed himself... I have to watch "When We Were Kings" again though... I haven't seen it since , literally, the first day it played on the big screen in the United States...

But if Mailer said Ali was losing on points he was wrong...He fought a great strategic fight and would have been up 5-2-1 on the cards if the fight continued...

Mailer also said he saw fear in Ali's eyes after round one... That require a lot of inference but who knows? Foreman was plenty scary...Fear is a primary emotion...It's how you react to it that matters.... Anyway...Ali wasn't scared when he winked to the woman that carries the round card after round five....

[man]

"Kill him", of course wasn't meant to be taken literally...If Ali wanted to "kill him" he should have got his last punch in...I'm sure Mike Tyson would have...

nevertheless. it is not really sportsmen-like, is it? but that is the thing,
ali was the only one who could get away with this. i mean, see it from
perspective, a professional fighter makes the crowd yell like that. in
ali's case it seems natural, almost part of the whole setting - because
ali decided so.

They started yelling it the moment he arrived in Zaire...I'm sure Ali didn't speak Lingala...And if Ali was losing the fight I don't think they would have yelled it...

as i understood it, he really pumped them up on this bumaye-thing.
that was pretty active. and he definitely did it during the fight.
yes, great show. but no, no good sportsmanship. i think ali is great,
but i think he has build up a too uncritical audience as well ...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

That's Young George being Young George... He purposely made Ali wait longer than what is customary for the champ to enter the ring and Ali used that time to work the crowd...When competitors are as evenly matched , physically, as Ali and Foreman , the boxer with the mental edge will win...Foreman, imho, was too immature to win that fight...

And I'm not convinced a Prime Foreman beats a Prime Ali either...

[elmersalsa]

The great Archie Moore told on NBC that also the pulling and holding behind the neck, plus the heat, it drained the great George Foreman. So many ILEGAL STUFF in that fight and the great Muhammad Ali got his way.

Was not this Don King's first great promotional fight?

[TheOneIsHere2008]

The great Archie Moore told on NBC that also the pulling and holding behind the neck, plus the heat, it drained the great George Foreman. So many ILEGAL STUFF in that fight and the great Muhammad Ali got his way.

Was not this Don King's first great promotional fight?

Didn't the heat affect Ali too?

And Foreman used illegal tactics against Frazier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpEuGaRp ... re=related

He pushed him off at least six times instead of using his jab to keep Frazier at bay...

Foreman just got owned by a superior boxer...

[Collins2000]

as i understood it, he really pumped them up on this bumaye-thing.
that was pretty active. and he definitely did it during the fight.
yes, great show. but no, no good sportsmanship. i think ali is great,
but i think he has build up a too uncritical audience as well ...

Enough with the "I think Ali is great but... " statements that are in all your posts. Just admit you can't stand the guy.

[Collins2000]

The great Archie Moore told on NBC that also the pulling and holding behind the neck, plus the heat, it drained the great George Foreman. So many ILEGAL STUFF in that fight and the great Muhammad Ali got his way.

Was not this Don King's first great promotional fight?

Didn't the heat affect Ali too?

And Foreman used illegal tactics against Frazier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpEuGaRp ... re=related

He pushed him off at least six times instead of using his jab to keep Frazier at bay...

Foreman just got owned by a superior boxer...

Most haters will never accept that.