Ali vs Norton III 1976 my score..finally

[Robinson]

Norton WON the last round!

I don;t think there were many close, "coulda gone either way" rounds. Maybe 2. I think it's a pretty easy fight to score actually.

I'll watch the whole fight tomorrow and list my scorecard in detail. I invite others to do the same.

Rarely do DF and I agree. BUT I whole heartedly agree here. I just do not
see this fight being that close with so many close rounds. Contray to what
others 'in the know' had it....

Maybe watch the fight without pachenco commentating it.

[Collins2000]

granberry....I know your reading this even if you have to remain silent for the next few weeks. I'll give you equal time.....

Boxbuzz, the so called "moderator" here once again shows that he will buy anything Thomas Hauser says, and he will dance in lockstep with "Ali Industry" as they attempt to infiltrate the minds of the know nothing elitists"

now that's fair and balanced.....

Sounds like you are missing your old buddy already.

When you let him back in and he starts his old tricks perhaps this time you can sort your own mess out without having to call in others.

I picture you hiding under the table singing "When I was just a little girl, here's what my mother she said to be..." as Ric and co have to clean up the rubbish you have encouraged and are even now encouraging.

Your another sticky wicket that's about as stubborn as a pack of mules with as least as much forgiveness and or sense in you as there is a need for buggy whips in this day and age...but your right....I'll need to be sober as a judge from now on (or you are sure to hunt me down and drown me in verbage!) . Your love for a meaningless argument is as vast as the galaxy itself and only granny could truly fill your vacuum. Up to now I have cleverly exploited your nonsense to engage in my need for keyboard practice to keep my piano skills sharp. From now on I'll step over to the musical keys rather than further fuel your desire to blather at me.

The difference between me and you is subtle. We are both cu nts but at least I'm a cu nt who knows something about boxing. See the "Who am I" thread. You are hanging around in here for 20 hours every day and have got zero right so far.

[Collins2000]

Collins is always sending me valentines in PM's.....we are great pals..seriously.... It's an old vaudevill schtick that we're trying to revive. It's a retro thing....

Buzz is my glove puppet. I shove my hand up his arse and he makes vague grunting noises which confuses some of you. He's having a great time really. Being a moderator here is the only 'job' he's ever had you know so go easy on him. Plus he's missing his pal, god bless him.

[elmersalsa]

THIS WAS HIGHWAY ROBBERY...ONLY IN AMERICA A FIGHTER LIKE ALI LOSES AND STILL "WINS".

Norton won all the 3 fights. No comment. No doubt.

[Robinson]

TOIH2008 out of curiosity....when you get the chance...or if you
already have, would you be able to post your score for Ali-Spinks 1&2,
and Ali-Holmes. Thanks

[BoxBuzz]

[
The difference between me and you is subtle. We are both cu nts but at least I'm a cu nt who knows something about boxing. See the "Who am I" thread. You are hanging around in here for 20 hours every day and have got zero right so far.

This is not possible! Well unless you have been wrong every time we agree....which is quite often....though you only seem to be truly concious/cognizant/awake/aware during times of conflict. Which could explain either the absolute possiblity of your statement OR your perceptions of the situation.

I suppose you need to pick your poison on that one.

And of course the genitalia/expletive you chose is only appropriate in your case.

....oops I let myself get dragged in by the cat again! I'll sign off on this last bit of quibble between us at this point. From now on you going to have to fuss on a uni-lateral basis. Your right, I have been far to responsive to that which is irrelevant such as your and gb's guff. I have little in the way of self control when I see a fellow clown...I always want to "talk shop" and review the differences between our local unions.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

THIS WAS HIGHWAY ROBBERY...ONLY IN AMERICA A FIGHTER LIKE ALI LOSES AND STILL "WINS".

Norton won all the 3 fights. No comment. No doubt.

Ipse dixit...


Respectfully, you confuse argument with assertion...

[TheOneIsHere2008]

I'll bet Box Buzz and Collins sat down for a beer they might like one another...

[elmersalsa]

THIS WAS HIGHWAY ROBBERY...ONLY IN AMERICA A FIGHTER LIKE ALI LOSES AND STILL "WINS".

Norton won all the 3 fights. No comment. No doubt.

Ipse dixit...


Respectfully, you confuse argument with assertion...

NO argument...Ali lost BIG TIME 3 TIMES WITH NORTON...END OF STORY FOR ME.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

THIS WAS HIGHWAY ROBBERY...ONLY IN AMERICA A FIGHTER LIKE ALI LOSES AND STILL "WINS".

Norton won all the 3 fights. No comment. No doubt.

Ipse dixit...


Respectfully, you confuse argument with assertion...

NO argument...Ali lost BIG TIME 3 TIMES WITH NORTON...END OF STORY FOR ME.

IPSE DIXIT

An ipse-dixitism is an unsupported or dogmatic assertion; it is a term sometimes used to point out a missing argument.

I won't dispute the first decision even though it was a split decision and it was 4-7-1 , 4-5-3 , 6-5 -1...

Even Ken Norton admits he lost the second fight...If you challenge my veracity, I'll supply the citaion...The third fight was ruled a draw by an independent panel of boxing experts....
As you know, the champion keeps his title in case of a draw:

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

-John Adams

[raylawpc]

"Ah yes, it always sounds so much more impressive in Latin. ..." Dracula in Count Dracula (1977) (BBC)

"Ipse dixit" = "He himself said it" (translated) = "That's your opinion, a**hole" (21st century paraphrase).

[BoxBuzz]

"The best defense is a good offense" Mel, the cook on "Alice"

[TheOneIsHere2008]

"Ah yes, it always sounds so much more impressive in Latin. ..." Dracula in Count Dracula (1977) (BBC)

"Ipse dixit" = "He himself said it" (translated) = "That's your opinion, a**hole" (21st century paraphrase).

Your translation is a bit rough...I just think folks mistake assertion for proof or evidence...

[raylawpc]

Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004), p. 847:

"ipse dixit (ip-see dik-sit) [Latin: "he himself said it."] Something asserted but not proved < his testimony that she was a liar was nothing more than ipse dixit>. [Cases: Evidence (key#) 555.4(1) C.J.S. Evidence Secs. 604, 642.]

[Collins2000]

[
The difference between me and you is subtle. We are both cu nts but at least I'm a cu nt who knows something about boxing. See the "Who am I" thread. You are hanging around in here for 20 hours every day and have got zero right so far.

This is not possible! Well unless you have been wrong every time we agree....which is quite often....though you only seem to be truly concious/cognizant/awake/aware during times of conflict. Which could explain either the absolute possiblity of your statement OR your perceptions of the situation.

I suppose you need to pick your poison on that one.

And of course the genitalia/expletive you chose is only appropriate in your case.

....oops I let myself get dragged in by the cat again! I'll sign off on this last bit of quibble between us at this point. From now on you going to have to fuss on a uni-lateral basis. Your right, I have been far to responsive to that which is irrelevant such as your and gb's guff. I have little in the way of self control when I see a fellow clown...I always want to "talk shop" and review the differences between our local unions.

What did we ever agree on?

You never talk specifics when it comes to boxing. For obvious reasons.

Here's something that did make me laugh though.

Last week the real moderator was issuing orders not to bait granberry. Fair enough, I thought, we can give it a try.

And what do I see a few days later? There's old Boxbuzz, baiting granberry with crap about him now not being able to respond etc.

Hilarious and so like you, Boxbuzz.

[Collins2000]

I'll bet Box Buzz and Collins sat down for a beer they might like one another...

I doubt it. I don't like people with no backbone.

[Collins2000]

Another dynamic of Joe's assessment...and maybe why he scored it so close, is that for as much as he would not cut Ali slack, Joe, more than anyone else would be able to understand what Kenny was going through when in the ring with Ali. He may have been trying to give Kenny a few breaks scoring wise knowing full well what Kenny was facing...and he may have wanted to keep his crediblity and not look "overly biased". And by claiming a one round victory for Kenny, he could still live with himself and not lose crediblity. Over all I think Joe is an honest guy. But he might be tempted in this case...but not overly so.

Does that make any sense? ....Anyway close fights are always hell to try to get the perfect handle on. I was one of the "shills" that saw this as "too close too crown a new champ". I'd feel the same way probably if it was Kenny walking into the ring as champion. I might not believe that Ali did what he needed to do, to change the status quo.

I'll go so far as to say that this fight would have gone to Ali by one round IMHO, if no championship was on the line.

ok say it....shill shilll shill...

granberry....I know your reading this even if you have to remain silent for the next few weeks. I'll give you equal time.....

Boxbuzz, the so called "moderator" here once again shows that he will buy anything Thomas Hauser says, and he will dance in lockstep with "Ali Industry" as they attempt to infiltrate the minds of the know nothing elitists"

now that's fair and balanced.....

Baiting granberry again, Buzz?

I thought that was a no-no now?

Or is it "Do as I say" rather that "Do as I do"?

Or do you just think you are being witty and amusing?

[Ambling Alp]

"The best defense is a good offense" Mel, the cook on "Alice"

Clearly one of the most eloquent philosophers in history.

[raylawpc]

Even Ken Norton admits he lost the second fight...If you challenge my veracity, I'll supply the citaion...

I am not challenging anyone's veracity, but when did Norton make that statement? I've never seen that statement before in print.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

Even Ken Norton admits he lost the second fight...If you challenge my veracity, I'll supply the citaion...

I am not challenging anyone's veracity, but when did Norton make that statement? I've never seen that statement before in print.

Frank: Is it fair to say that Ali won the second fight by winning the last round, and that’s why he won the decision?

Norton: Yes, I can see why they gave him the decision.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-ne ... erview.php

[BoxBuzz]

Another dynamic of Joe's assessment...and maybe why he scored it so close, is that for as much as he would not cut Ali slack, Joe, more than anyone else would be able to understand what Kenny was going through when in the ring with Ali. He may have been trying to give Kenny a few breaks scoring wise knowing full well what Kenny was facing...and he may have wanted to keep his crediblity and not look "overly biased". And by claiming a one round victory for Kenny, he could still live with himself and not lose crediblity. Over all I think Joe is an honest guy. But he might be tempted in this case...but not overly so.

Does that make any sense? ....Anyway close fights are always hell to try to get the perfect handle on. I was one of the "shills" that saw this as "too close too crown a new champ". I'd feel the same way probably if it was Kenny walking into the ring as champion. I might not believe that Ali did what he needed to do, to change the status quo.

I'll go so far as to say that this fight would have gone to Ali by one round IMHO, if no championship was on the line.

ok say it....shill shilll shill...

granberry....I know your reading this even if you have to remain silent for the next few weeks. I'll give you equal time.....

Boxbuzz, the so called "moderator" here once again shows that he will buy anything Thomas Hauser says, and he will dance in lockstep with "Ali Industry" as they attempt to infiltrate the minds of the know nothing elitists"

now that's fair and balanced.....

Baiting granberry again, Buzz?

I thought that was a no-no now?

Or is it "Do as I say" rather that "Do as I do"?

Or do you just think you are being witty and amusing?

I'll take "witty and amusing" for 10!

Ya got me! once again we agree.....I'm a bad bad man. But I'm working on improving and with your hints and guidance the good times are just around the corner for me!

Collins, with all the very specific information that I have read you'd think I'd be more into the minutia....but I'm at heart a generalist, and look for the spirit of things.....and though I have at my fingertips all sorts of data, it's the "truth" rather than the "facts" that intrigue me. But I always look forward to my next bit of directorial oversight that you are willing to offer up from your lair.

So thank you once again, for saying just the right thing, at just the right time.

Which brings me back to the point of this thread, I believe it was the repetitive "just the right things, at just the right times" that won Ali this fight. I'll have my people get back to you on just what those things were and when they occurred. But as I recall it had to do with cleverly placed Jabs, right hands and ring generalship, combined with less than state of the art (due to an aging Ali) defensive tactics, the specifics of which (uncharacteristically) escape me for the moment.

Now what was it you were saying Collins?

[My2Sense]

Even Ken Norton admits he lost the second fight...If you challenge my veracity, I'll supply the citaion...

I am not challenging anyone's veracity, but when did Norton make that statement? I've never seen that statement before in print.

Frank: Is it fair to say that Ali won the second fight by winning the last round, and that’s why he won the decision?

Norton: Yes, I can see why they gave him the decision.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-ne ... erview.php

That's not an admission that he lost, only that he can understand why and how the judges scored the other way.

Here's the whole quote:

Frank: Do you think Ali stole the second fight by winning the 12th Round with his two big flurries in that round?

Norton: Yes. Ali was bigger than boxing at that time.

Frank: Is it fair to say that Ali won the second fight by winning the last round, and that’s why he won the decision?

Norton: Yes, I can see why they gave him the decision.

He never says outright that he lost, and here he seems to imply that there were outside factors influencing the judges' decision.


For the record, I have heard Norton in interviews say something like this:

(rough quote) "The first two fights were close, but the third fight I definitely won".

I've never heard Norton say outright that he lost the second fight, only that it was close and he hasn't adamently insisted that he should've won (like he did the 3rd fight).

[raylawpc]

Thanks. I do not read this statement as admitting he lost the second fight, only that the fight was close and the could understand if the judges gave Ali the decision.

I appreciate you going to the trouble of pulling the statement so that we can all read what Norton said. Thanks again.

[TheOneIsHere2008]

All three fights were close. If people see it differently, that's their right...

Ken Norton also said "...So I don’t want to be remembered as the man who broke Ali’s jaw. I just want to be remembered as a man who fought three close competitive fights with Ali, and became his friend when the fighting was over."

http://www.americansc.org.uk/online/Ali.htm

[BoxBuzz]

I'm going to watch it again and bring my best eye. (Keep it in a drawer for special occasions).

Norton Supporters are typically a bit more specific in there assessment. I found it a close fight and used the celebrity panel who called it a draw and Joe Frazier's opinion to help form my own opinion. I assume real judges know more than me and can be at least somewhat influenced by "experts". But in any very close fight I tend to favor the champion....it's a bias I admit to. Camera angle limits us as to just what we can assess at this point. I haven't watched this one in a while I have to say I also try to read the fighters faces when it is a close round, and if a fighter appears to express control I tend to be "led" in that direction.

I have to say that perceptions and subjectivity are part of the judgment process in any fight. Does anyone think that fights could someday be judged by computer only?